"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[MarkGrace]

For me that price would have to be pretty low. He's not a great 3pt shooter, he's not a very good defender, he doesn't get to the line much, he's not big for a SG and doesn't have a long wingspan, and after coming into the league at 21 his best two seasons were actually his first two. Last year he had that great first half, but the 2nd half of the season he was only 41% from the field, 67% from the line, and the few times I saw him play he looked totally disinterested.

41% on +4 attempts are good 3pt shooting numbers. Toss in 45% from the field, 82% from the line, and an eFG% of 51% and you have what would have been the best shooter on the Jazz last year. The 3pt% is a career high, but over five seasons you're still talking about 38% on over 4 attempts per. And he's 25, which means he's coming into those years where guys usually have peak shooting seasons. He has plenty of failings, but looking at what he brings in context you basically get the floor spacing/shooting presence of a guy like Foye, only Mayo is better in every other aspect (D, rebounds, assists, etc.). I worry more about the fact that he's a knucklehead and potential bad presence more than anything related to his game. And the way he crashed in the second half of last season is worrisome -- he averaged 18 per game before the break and only 11 after when Dirk came back (plus, as you mentioned, his FG and FT %'s took a real dive).

I wouldn't pay crazy money for him, but I'd take him at $6mm or so. I have no idea what the market will be like, though my impression has always been there's not going to be a ton of money out there for guys like him.

[smokymountainrain]

Somebody help out here and tell me where I'm wrong.

I think we can all agree that signing Mayo doesn't really do anything for the Jazz in terms of real NBA success. He's not a guy who is going to add a significant number of wins to an NBA team. He didn't make Dallas better, Memphis had more success after he left the team - but even more than that, he simply isn't the type of player who is a difference maker. Not his fault, it's just who he is. With him or without him, the Jazz are most likely a lottery team, with the very best case scenario, they sneak into the playoffs and are out in the first round.

With that understanding - and even if I take off my Burks goggles for a second - doesn't it make sense, any time you draft a player in the lottery, before his rookie contract is expired, to see what you have in him? As long as it doesn't hinder your chances to be successful?

Burks has played well during those rare occasions when he's been able to string together a few games of decent playing time. The Jazz as a team have played well. In spite of that fact, he still might suck. But then he might be good. Adding Mayo, unless there a major injury, virturally ensures Burks will end his Jazz career without ever being given a significant long term opportunity to prove himself in real games. For what? So the Jazz could play guys like Randy Foye, Mo Williams, Marvin Williams and OJ Mayo and miss the playoffs anyway.

What am I missing?

I worry about Kanter in the same way. He has now been on the team for two years and similar to Burks, has never played big minutes for an extended perioed of time during the season. If the Jazz sign Millsap and pursue another big man that is guaranteed to get starter type minutes - apply the same logic to Kanter's situation.

[SandYFan]

Somebody help out here and tell me where I'm wrong.

You're not. This year needs to be a 100% youth movement. The Jazz should have done this last year, but whatever. Bringing in vets to lead us to another 8 seed is worthless and actually damaging to the club in the long term.

[cougjunkie]

You're not. This year needs to be a 100% youth movement. The Jazz should have done this last year, but whatever. Bringing in vets to lead us to another 8 seed is worthless and actually damaging to the club in the long term.

Mayo is only 25 he would fit in well with the youth movement.

[UteStar]

You're not. This year needs to be a 100% youth movement. The Jazz should have done this last year, but whatever. Bringing in vets to lead us to another 8 seed is worthless and actually damaging to the club in the long term.

I am not completely sold on Mayo...but Mayo is not exactly going against the youth movement. He is 25 years old and is a solid NBA player (I would take him over Foye). I have no problem bringing in a few players that have some experience. In fact, I think it is vital to the team. Now with saying that, I am not advocating bringing in a 30+ year old to play 35 minutes a game. But you can play this smart and bring in some more experienced players to get some minutes. It can help the youngsters.

Now this could go all out the window with Corbin as coach. If he is bringing in Mayo to get 35 minutes a game and wants Jefferson back to get his 35 minutes a game as well as Tinsley to snag 20+ mins a game, yeah, I will be pissed.

[smokymountainrain]

Mayo could be 19 and it wouldn't change anything in the above scenario I mentioned. The fact is, Mayo doesn't significantly increase the Jazz chances to be a successful NBA team. If signing him causes a lottery pick (a lottery pick that has played well when given minutes) to finish his Jazz career without ever playing consistent minutes, it's a bad thing.

[Jacob]

Somebody help out here and tell me where I'm wrong.

I think we can all agree that signing Mayo doesn't really do anything for the Jazz in terms of real NBA success. He's not a guy who is going to add a significant number of wins to an NBA team. He didn't make Dallas better, Memphis had more success after he left the team - but even more than that, he simply isn't the type of player who is a difference maker. Not his fault, it's just who he is. With him or without him, the Jazz are most likely a lottery team, with the very best case scenario, they sneak into the playoffs and are out in the first round.

With that understanding - and even if I take off my Burks goggles for a second - doesn't it make sense, any time you draft a player in the lottery, before his rookie contract is expired, to see what you have in him? As long as it doesn't hinder your chances to be successful?

Burks has played well during those rare occasions when he's been able to string together a few games of decent playing time. The Jazz as a team have played well. In spite of that fact, he still might suck. But then he might be good. Adding Mayo, unless there a major injury, virturally ensures Burks will end his Jazz career without ever being given a significant long term opportunity to prove himself in real games. For what? So the Jazz could play guys like Randy Foye, Mo Williams, Marvin Williams and OJ Mayo and miss the playoffs anyway.

What am I missing?

I worry about Kanter in the same way. He has now been on the team for two years and similar to Burks, has never played big minutes for an extended perioed of time during the season. If the Jazz sign Millsap and pursue another big man that is guaranteed to get starter type minutes - apply the same logic to Kanter's situation.

The team has to be filled out with some players, even if the 5 you (and I) want to start are starters. Should those spots be filled with 2nd round picks and replacement players, or shoulD the Jazz try to fill in those holes with players that will actually help the young guys win a few more games? So I guess I disagree that Mayo wouldn't help them win games. He's a solid bench player on the wing, a position where the Jazz need to fill holes. But if the Jazz really want to tank for a top 3 pick, then I suppose they ought to fill the roster spots with rejects.

Did you guys see that AK opted out of his contract? Leaving 10 million on the table is a bit surprising, but he should be able to get the full mid-level on about any team he wants if he wanted to chase a real playoff run. Why not go play PF for the Heat or the Spurs? Or OKC. And I've always liked him, so I'd love for the Jazz to bring him back for a year or two. Maybe he's headed back to Russia

[MarkGrace]

With that understanding - and even if I take off my Burks goggles for a second - doesn't it make sense, any time you draft a player in the lottery, before his rookie contract is expired, to see what you have in him? As long as it doesn't hinder your chances to be successful?

Burks has played well during those rare occasions when he's been able to string together a few games of decent playing time. The Jazz as a team have played well. In spite of that fact, he still might suck. But then he might be good. Adding Mayo, unless there a major injury, virturally ensures Burks will end his Jazz career without ever being given a significant long term opportunity to prove himself in real games. For what? So the Jazz could play guys like Randy Foye, Mo Williams, Marvin Williams and OJ Mayo and miss the playoffs anyway.

What am I missing?

I worry about Kanter in the same way. He has now been on the team for two years and similar to Burks, has never played big minutes for an extended perioed of time during the season. If the Jazz sign Millsap and pursue another big man that is guaranteed to get starter type minutes - apply the same logic to Kanter's situation.

I always just think this is a faulty premise. A three-man rotation at any two positions shouldn't do anything to hinder a player. You have 96 mins between 2 spots -- you can play three guys +30 minutes each; that's plenty enough to go around, especially when two of those guys can play PG in a pinch. Same thing for the big rotation, you just need three guys you can rely on. If they sign Sap, there's no reason to worry (other than the fact that Gobert will get squeezed, but he's not ready for minutes); if they sign a 4th, I may get a little worried.

There's also always this underlying assumption that we shouldn't sign a player unless he's a "difference maker." That's always the comment. "So and so is not a difference maker." But we need to fill out a roster (we don't even have enough players to go into the season with right now) and who else is going to walk through that door? CP3? Dwight Howard? I just see Mayo as a guy, like I said, who can fill Foye's role but also do a few things better. Burke, Mayo, G-Time gives you three legitimate shooters on the floor so hopefully Derrick and Enes get some space to breathe. Of course if he wants $8mm or more and a bunch of years I say forget it and sign Foye to a couple year deal at like $3-4 a year for a couple years.

Burks I worry about in the starting group right now because his shot just isn't very good (41% eFG% on jumpshots) and I get the impression that he's much better with the ball. So for now I stick him in Gordon's role from last year when he can be the lead scorer off the bench and fill in at the 1 and 2 spots where needed.

EDIT: Shit, I forgot about Marvin. That gives you a four man wing rotation, which is more difficult. Though maybe you just sign two points and have Burks/Mayo fill in as the 3rd point guard. Also, I'd be fine with them not playing Marvin at all, ever.

[smokymountainrain]

The team has to be filled out with some players, even if the 5 you (and I) want to start are starters. Should those spots be filled with 2nd round picks and replacement players, or shoulD the Jazz try to fill in those holes with players that will actually help the young guys win a few more games? So I guess I disagree that Mayo wouldn't help them win games. He's a solid bench player on the wing, a position where the Jazz need to fill holes. But if the Jazz really want to tank for a top 3 pick, then I suppose they ought to fill the roster spots with rejects.

You could have said the same thing about Mo, Foye and/or Marvin last year. Did they make the Jazz a better team?

That said, ultimately, you're right. The problem isn't Mayo - it's the coach. I guess my line of thinking is just trying to save the coach from himself.

[smokymountainrain]

I always just think this is a faulty premise. A three-man rotation at any two positions shouldn't do anything to hinder a player. You have 96 mins between 2 spots -- you can play three guys +30 minutes each; that's plenty enough to go around, especially when two of those guys can play PG in a pinch. Same thing for the big rotation, you just need three guys you can rely on. If they sign Sap, there's no reason to worry (other than the fact that Gobert will get squeezed, but he's not ready for minutes); if they sign a 4th, I may get a little worried.

There's also always this underlying assumption that we shouldn't sign a player unless he's a "difference maker." That's always the comment. "So and so is not a difference maker." But we need to fill out a roster (we don't even have enough players to go into the season with right now) and who else is going to walk through that door? CP3? Dwight Howard? I just see Mayo as a guy, like I said, who can fill Foye's role but also do a few things better. Burke, Mayo, G-Time gives you three legitimate shooters on the floor so hopefully Derrick and Enes get some space to breathe. Of course if he wants $8mm or more and a bunch of years I say forget it and sign Foye to a couple year deal at like $3-4 a year for a couple years.

Burks I worry about in the starting group right now because his shot just isn't very good (41% eFG% on jumpshots) and I get the impression that he's much better with the ball. So for now I stick him in Gordon's role from last year when he can be the lead scorer off the bench and fill in at the 1 and 2 spots where needed.

EDIT: Shit, I forgot about Marvin. That gives you a four man wing rotation, which is more difficult. Though maybe you just sign two points and have Burks/Mayo fill in as the 3rd point guard. Also, I'd be fine with them not playing Marvin at all, ever.

I'd be curious what Burks' effective FG% was during that stretch in Feb (March?) when he actually strung together 5-10 games where he was playing 20+ minutes.

[MarkGrace]

I'd be curious what Burks' effective FG% was during that stretch in Feb (March?) when he actually strung together 5-10 games where he was playing 20+ minutes.

I'd be more curious to care if he'd just play better when given minutes.

[MarkGrace]

So sounds like Tinsley will be back. Says he wants to mentor Burke. Guess that locks down the 3rd PG spot.

[Maximus]

since tinsley sucks, do we want burke to learn from him?

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

I'd be more curious to care if he'd just play better when given minutes.

Like the 45/39 shooting split after the break with one of the best FTA rates on the team even while playing many of those minutes at a secondary position?

He was maddeningly bad to start the season. If he's going to have a career he's got to be able to score, and he couldn't make anything. But then Corbin stopped jerking him around, gave him consistent minutes game after game, and his play and shot improved significantly. I also thought his on-ball defense improved quite a bit last year.

[smokymountainrain]

But we need to fill out a roster (we don't even have enough players to go into the season with right now) and who else is going to walk through that door? CP3? Dwight Howard? I just see Mayo as a guy, like I said, who can fill Foye's role but also do a few things better.

Jacob made a similar point and I think it has some merit. Here is a list of wings who would arguable "help" the team as much as Mayo, but would fit better with the direction the Jazz should be going (guys who would be okay coming off the bench, take less money and wouldn't have to play starters minutes):

Korver Yes, even Korver would be a better fit than Mayo.
Stackhouse
Belinelli
Morrow
Francisco Garcia
Billups - perfect in the sense that he can play both guard spots and would be helluva a lot better to mentor Burke than effing Tinsley
Marquis Daniels
Ronnie Brewer
Udrih
Wesley Johnson
Tracy McGrady
Ginobili
Pietrus
DeMarre
Webster

IOW, you can get good players, players that would help as much as Mayo, but would cost less and be willing to come of the bench and play bench minutes.