"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[MarkGrace]

Not to put a damper on the celebration but CJ had a 40 pt game this season. Do I think he'll turn out to be CJ? No, but I remain cautiously optimistic. Fun game tonight though.

Doesn't mean you can't give it up to him for his game last night. That was seriously impressive, no matter what the circumstances.

[smokymountainrain]

Doesn't mean you can't give it up to him for his game last night. That was seriously impressive, no matter what the circumstances.

Impressive, indeed. I finally realized last night who he reminds me of most in terms of a guy without great athleticism (I know, I know, he's a good/underrated athlete, but he's not great) nor an elite pure shooter...Manu.

Ginobili, in his first 2-3 years was an incredible athlete, but since then he's been a guy who has impacted the game with his high bball IQ, solid all-around game (defense, ball-handling, passing), competitive nature, being a go-to guy at critical times and ability to make plays consistently off the bounce - either scoring, passing or getting to the FT line.

I see Hayward as that type of player.

[Donuthole]

Impressive, indeed. I finally realized last night who he reminds me of most in terms of a guy without great athleticism (I know, I know, he's a good/underrated athlete, but he's not great) nor an elite pure shooter...Manu.

Ginobili, in his first 2-3 years was an incredible athlete, but since then he's been a guy who has impacted the game with his high bball IQ, solid all-around game (defense, ball-handling, passing), competitive nature, being a go-to guy at critical times and ability to make plays consistently off the bounce - either scoring, passing or getting to the FT line.

I see Hayward as that type of player.

Only 5 months late on that one.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...postcount=4790

I don't think Hayward will ever average 20ppg like Manu did in his prime, but he'll never play with one of the best PFINOs of all time, either, so that's not necessarily an indictment of Hayward. I do think he'll be a better defender and passer than Manu (he might already be a better defender than Manu was at his best).

[smokymountainrain]

Only 5 months late on that one.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...postcount=4790

I don't think Hayward will ever average 20ppg like Manu did in his prime, but he'll never play with one of the best PFINOs of all time, either, so that's not necessarily an indictment of Hayward. I do think he'll be a better defender and passer than Manu (he might already be a better defender than Manu was at his best).

Crap. Did you or Thorpe compare him to Manu? I'm late because I just started watching the Jazz in the last few weeks. After the first month or so of the season, I never really saw Hayward play much.

I probably agree that Hayward is probably a better on ball defender right now, but he has a little way to go before he reaches Manu's level as a passer/play maker.

[Donuthole]

Crap. Did you or Thorpe compare him to Manu? I'm late because I just started watching the Jazz in the last few weeks. After the first month or so of the season, I never really saw Hayward play much.

I probably agree that Hayward is probably a better on ball defender right now, but he has a little way to go before he reaches Manu's level as a passer/play maker.

I have a friend who made the comparison back in summer league. I scoffed a bit, and said he was looking too much at their herky-jerky body motion and not enough at the results of their game. Now he texts me after every Hayward play to boast.

[MarkGrace]

The Manu-Hayward thing has been discussed in this thread only a couple pages back. His teammates have said he reminds them a lot of Manu and that he should be watching all the film of Manu he can get his hands on.

"He's a well-rounded player and he's an unselfish player," Watson said. "He's a playmaker. He can score. He can get his own shot. He can come off picks. He can handle pick-and-rolls. He's a great defender. He has underestimated athletic ability. He's really athletic. He has a (Manu) Ginobili-like quickness to him."

Now, even as his biggest champion in this thread, I don't think he's going to be as good as Manu. Manu is extremely underrated because he's always played so few minutes -- but on a per-minute basis, Manu is a flat out superstar and one of the most prolific scorers in the league. Hayward's not getting to that level, but I can see the comparison a bit.

Impressive, indeed. I finally realized last night who he reminds me of most in terms of a guy without great athleticism (I know, I know, he's a good/underrated athlete, but he's not great) nor an elite pure shooter...Manu.

Manu Ginobili career 3pt%: 37%. Manu single best season from 3: 40.1%
Hayward rookie year: 47.3%. Hayward after AS break: 54.5%.

Obviously Manu is taking a lot more 3pters and being guarded a lot more closely, but hot damn those are some serious numbers from G-Hay from beyond the arc. Who knows if he'll keep it up (Deron's only season above 40% from three was his rookie year, and he similarly shot +50% after the AS break), but from the kid who I was constantly told couldn't shoot, that's not half bad.

[MarkGrace]

This was the other Manu comment, which came from a poster on JH.N:

Coming home from the Cleveland game, Locke on the radio talked about Gordon and how his teammates feel about him. He said to a man, they all think Hayward is going to be very good.

The shocker though? At least to me. Locke said that one player had told Gordon to watch every bit of film he could get his hands on of Manu Ginobli because he thinks G-Hay can be that kind of player.

[smokymountainrain]

This was the other Manu comment, which came from a poster on JH.N:

I hate when I agree with Locke. Just when I thought I was sounding pretty smart.

[MarkGrace]

Favors makes Thorpe's 2nd team all-rookie.

Second team

Gary Neal, Spurs
Ed Davis, Raptors
Patrick Patterson, Rockets
DeMarcus Cousins, Kings
Derrick Favors, Jazz

He also picked him as having the 3rd best potential among all rooks (behind Griffin and Wall).

3. Derrick Favors
I often compare player development to gardening. Some plants require almost nothing, can live anywhere and thrive no matter what. For instance, in NBA terms: Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Griffin.

But most plants require a good amount of sun, water, etc. to do well. Give them special attention, and they reach their full size and color.

Favors should do really well in Utah, where he will get the resources he needs to become very good -- a coach who will use his talent, a GM who will build smartly with him in mind and, most importantly, a chance to play a lot now that the Jazz are regrouping and rebuilding.

At worst, Favors will flirt with being a double-double machine and a solid defender, qualities that would put him fourth on this list. But I suspect he'll get enough special attention to pass Patrick Patterson and become the third-best player in this class within five years.

And said in chat the other day that he thinks he'll be a future AS.

Damon (Santa Cruz, CA)

Coach Thorpe, how good can Derrick Favors be for the Jazz? Starting PF?

David Thorpe (12:10 PM)

Yes, he can become an All-Star.

Hayward makes the most disappointing team.

Most disappointing

Wesley Johnson, Timberwolves
Al-Farouq Aminu, Clippers
Gordon Hayward, Jazz
Evan Turner, Sixers
DeMarcus Cousins, Kings

And gets an award for strongest finish.

Finishing Strong
Gordon Hayward, Jazz
Jordan Crawford, Wizards

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...eReport-110413

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat...r-david-thorpe

[Jacob]

Favors makes Thorpe's 2nd team all-rookie.



He also picked him as having the 3rd best potential among all rooks (behind Griffin and Wall).

Some plants require almost nothing, can live anywhere and thrive no matter what. For instance, in NBA terms: Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Griffin.

This is interesting considering Kobe's entry into the NBA. We know that LeBron was amazing from the start, and Wade was really good. Griffin up there with LeBron. But Kobe's start was not-so-great.

As a rookie:
15 mpg
7.6 pts
41% FG
1.9 reb
1.3 asts

So, Kobe needed the nurturing as well. He was not Lebron. Though, IIRC, he was on a good team with Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Ceballos...and Shaq.

Favors' rookie stats are at least as impressive as Kobe's. That's pretty meaningless for Favors' future, but I found Kobe's stats interesting.

In that vein, Hayward's rookie stats are more impressive than Kobe's, but Hayward is a few years older, so again, pretty meaningless.

The only take-away from all this for me is that great players, who are young, will likely take several years to develop. Kobe was given more opportunity than he deserved because someone was smart enough to recognize that he could be that good. Remember those air-ball against the Jazz in the playoffs? Kobe had no business taking those shots. The Jazz couldn't stop Van Exel or Eddie Jones in that series. But some dummy (Del Harris?) though it a good idea to run the plays for Kobe. Or maybe Kobe just ball-hogged it. Either way, he was nurtured and allowed to screw up a lot to prepare him for the future.

I don't see how Favors gets 25 mpg next year with the current roster. That's why I think Millsap or Memo have to be traded. And Millsap is likely more sought after.

I don't expect greatness from Favors for several years.

[MarkGrace]

This is interesting considering Kobe's entry into the NBA. We know that LeBron was amazing from the start, and Wade was really good. Griffin up there with LeBron. But Kobe's start was not-so-great.

As a rookie:
15 mpg
7.6 pts
41% FG
1.9 reb
1.3 asts

So, Kobe needed the nurturing as well. He was not Lebron. Though, IIRC, he was on a good team with Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Ceballos...and Shaq.

I read that a little differently. I don't think he's saying Kobe came into the league a stud, I think he's saying that he had the kind of talent and drive that would have allowed him to succeed anywhere -- and I think he's right about that. Other guys need the right situation to flourish.

[MarkGrace]

Hayward and Favors on the rookie ladder.

8. Gordon Hayward: Utah Jazz Hayward continues to prove down the stretch that he has a future in the league. Even when he struggles from the floor (as he did against Portland, going 1-for-5, 0-for-3 on 3s), Hayward stayed aggressive and got to the line eight times (hitting all eight) to finish with 10 points in the jazz' 98-87 loss on Thursday. In his last five games, Hayward is averaging 14.8 points on 58.3 percent shooting and is likely going to finish the season 11th among rookies in scoring. Not bad for a guy who rarely saw the floor in the first two months of the season.

9 Derrick Favors : Utah Jazz Favors had his best scoring game yet, putting up 17 points in Utah's 111-102 loss in San Antonio on Saturday. Favors has been lost in the shuffle this season, never dominating but never disappearing, so it's somewhat surprising to see that he'll finish fifth in rebounding (5.3 rpg) and eighth in scoring (6.8 ppg). It was a rough season for the Jazz, but with Favors and Hayward the future looks bright, when you look at the big picture.

http://www.nba.com/rookieladder/

[Blueintheface]

This was the other Manu comment, which came from a poster on JH.N:

That player was Ronnie Price. During locker clean out this morning Locke interviewed him and he was effusive in his praise for G-Hay.

[MarkGrace]

That player was Ronnie Price. During locker clean out this morning Locke interviewed him and he was effusive in his praise for G-Hay.

Really? I just assumed it was Watson once that comment came out in the paper.

[MarkGrace]

Listening to the lockerroom interviews. Hayward says he hasn't spent one dollar from the checks he's made during the season. ha.