The Big 12 expansion groundswell

[byu71]

There are a lot of GAs who think Mormons should cheer for Utah football and use BYU as a religious institution.

I wouldn't doubt it. About 12 years ago I posted on CB that perhaps the best idea would be to discontinue sports at BYU and let the LDS kids know going to Utah would be a great alternative. That was before they hit folks up for some big bucks to upgrade facilities and looked like they were serious about the big time. Utah accept missions and most people associate Utah with the church. If GBH thought good vibes come from the Jazz, surely he would feel the same about the Utes.

Let's face it. The higher ups aren't upset about LDS kids playing ball on Sunday, they aren't upset if kids slip and drink. They aren't that upset if a kid happens to have sex. They are just upset if it happens at BYU and becomes public.

[Goatnapper'96]

There are a lot of GAs who think Mormons should cheer for Utah football and use BYU as a religious institution.

Clearly those GAs are outnumbered. Besides that momentum is a powerful force for an organization that believes all previous leaders were inspired of God, look at the history of the Church with blacks.

I think that the collective mormon psyche loves/wants/needs acceptance and recognition. In our world college sports can bring that in spades. Yet with BYU sports it can have that opportunity while still being able to be perceived as unique (i.e. Brandon Davies incident). BYU sports is here to stay and LDS leaders/BYU admin want it displayed on as high a level as they can.

[cowboy]

... Second, the WCC (and BYU for that matter) was incredibly naive to think that BYU wouldn't potentially leave if given a better opportunity.

This is exactly what worries me. I don't know what our agreement was, but if we did agree to stay for two years, then saying that the WCC should have known better than to think we would keep our commitment if something better came along doesn't work for me.

Did BYU sign some agreement that they would never leave the WCC under any circumstances?

No, but Viking's post suggested that we were trying to keep a commitment to the WCC. I have no idea what our agreement was, but my thoughts were based on the condition that Viking was accurate.

Didn't the WCC put out some announcement last week that conferene members were free to leave without any legal reprucussions?

If that is the case, then my thoughts are even more irrelevant than usual.

[Cougarmandias]

Those are very different situations. There are aspects of BYU's program that are limiting to potential success. Clearly the HC program is that. There is also the non-negotiable sunday play issue that likely causes conferences to pause. However, when has BYU ever shied away from more exposure and more $$. To the true BYU mind this is a greater opportunity because it will allow BYU even more exposure the next time a high profile HC violation strikes and thus the privileged blessing to demonstrate moral superiority to more folks!

I am more concerned about BYU competing at that level than I am BYU saying no. Unless the invitation is contingent upon BYU breaking a non-negotiable value (i.e. Sunday play) there is no way I see the BYU mindset saying "no thank you." I believe the sentiment that BYU would say "no thanks" to be irrational hysteria that is inconsistent with BYU's mentality.

The Church's business culture is pretty conservative, so I wouldn't expect BYU to be as aggressive as fans would like about trying to get in with the Big 12 while first OU and then Mizzou is talking about leaving. But if that gets ironed out satisfactorily, I expect the green eye shade boys to take over and get the deal inked.

Personally I would have no hard feelings at all if BYU didn't get in to the B12 because BYU expected tangible commitments to stability.

[EuropeanFootballMale]

Those are very different situations. There are aspects of BYU's program that are limiting to potential success. Clearly the HC program is that. There is also the non-negotiable sunday play issue that likely causes conferences to pause. However, when has BYU ever shied away from more exposure and more $$. To the true BYU mind this is a greater opportunity because it will allow BYU even more exposure the next time a high profile HC violation strikes and thus the privileged blessing to demonstrate moral superiority to more folks!

I am more concerned about BYU competing at that level than I am BYU saying no. Unless the invitation is contingent upon BYU breaking a non-negotiable value (i.e. Sunday play) there is no way I see the BYU mindset saying "no thank you." I believe the sentiment that BYU would say "no thanks" to be irrational hysteria that is inconsistent with BYU's mentality.

I mostly agree, but I do worry that "they" might see this as the ultimate opportunity to show how super neato BYU is.

[byu71]

That is my hope, and one they are in they will have no choice but to do all within their power to compete. But I am of the opinion that BYU is pretty much already doing that.

That would also be my hope, but I have been hoping a lot longer than you and so can be excused for having my "hope" batteries running low.

I mean dang it. Utes play ASU a week from Saturday at RES. We play SJ State the same day at 8:15 on ESPNU.

[Goatnapper'96]

Let's face it. The higher ups aren't upset about LDS kids playing ball on Sunday, they aren't upset if kids slip and drink. They aren't that upset if a kid happens to have sex. They are just upset if it happens at BYU and becomes public.

I think the higher ups are as upset about individual lifestyle choices that violate LDS standards/values no matter where the youngster is going to school. I think they value BYU because it is an opportunity for the Church to demonstrate "in the world but not of." However, without viable college sports nobody will know whether or not BYU is "in the world."

There is no doubt that the viewing of BYU as a cultural exposure tool causes some unfortunate cases where individual needs are subordinated to tribal goals. I actually think that the BD incident has caused some re-evaluation of that trend.

[Viking]

Clearly those GAs are outnumbered. Besides that momentum is a powerful force for an organization that believes all previous leaders were inspired of God, look at the history of the Church with blacks.

I think that the collective mormon psyche loves/wants/needs acceptance and recognition. In our world college sports can bring that in spades. Yet with BYU sports it can have that opportunity while still being able to be perceived as unique (i.e. Brandon Davies incident). BYU sports is here to stay and LDS leaders/BYU admin want it displayed on as high a level as they can.

They are, for sure. It's a small but relatively vocal group.

One person who is not part of this faction: can't say

[Viking]

I think the higher ups are as upset about individual lifestyle choices that violate LDS standards/values no matter where the youngster is going to school. I think they value BYU because it is an opportunity for the Church to demonstrate "in the world but not of." However, without viable college sports nobody will know whether or not BYU is "in the world."

There is no doubt that the viewing of BYU as a cultural exposure tool causes some unfortunate cases where individual needs are subordinated to tribal goals. I actually think that the BD incident has caused some re-evaluation of that trend.

I think there's a correlation between BD and prop 8...a recognition that the church needs to remember that it is, afterall, a Christian institution and that justice isn't always the winner.

[Goatnapper'96]

The Church's business culture is pretty conservative, so I wouldn't expect BYU to be as aggressive as fans would like about trying to get in with the Big 12 while first OU and then Mizzou is talking about leaving. But if that gets ironed out satisfactorily, I expect the green eye shade boys to take over and get the deal inked.

Personally I would have no hard feelings at all if BYU didn't get in to the B12 because BYU expected tangible commitments to stability.

I agree with that, but I am working from the perspective that Texas and OU have no where else to go and that eventually the Big-12 will work out some type of stability, even though the recent movement should leave us all convinced no such marriage vows exist. So I expect the Big-12 to stay viable and BYU to join it once it has stabilized its own house.

[PolyCougar]

I wouldn't doubt it. About 12 years ago I posted on CB that perhaps the best idea would be to discontinue sports at BYU and let the LDS kids know going to Utah would be a great alternative. That was before they hit folks up for some big bucks to upgrade facilities and looked like they were serious about the big time. Utah accept missions and most people associate Utah with the church. If GBH thought good vibes come from the Jazz, surely he would feel the same about the Utes.

Let's face it. The higher ups aren't upset about LDS kids playing ball on Sunday, they aren't upset if kids slip and drink. They aren't that upset if a kid happens to have sex. They are just upset if it happens at BYU and becomes public.

True that... It's way easier to be a Mormon than a BYU student. And I've always thought it was funny that the honor code was originally designed by students.

I'm not against it, without it BYU would be the exact same school as the U of U (with less research and better sports), I've always just had problems with the way it's enforced. With a Bishops repentance session it's very much the spirit of the law, when it seems the Honor Code office is more the letter.

But I digress, does that Cougarboard rumor about a press meeting today have any legs to it? I go there to see the latest rumor, then go here for the cooler heads. Granted there are some seriously funny people over there, but it's a troll-fest.

[Goatnapper'96]

I mostly agree, but I do worry that "they" might see this as the ultimate opportunity to show how super neato BYU is.

They love $ and the real influential folks (HCs and AD) understand and are likely able to convincingly articulate that this is a springboard to more exposure.

The point is this gives increased opportunities to demonstrate BYU's neatoness.

[Goatnapper'96]

That would also be my hope, but I have been hoping a lot longer than you and so can be excused for having my "hope" batteries running low.

I mean dang it. Utes play ASU a week from Saturday at RES. We play SJ State the same day at 8:15 on ESPNU.

This is the first time BYU has had a chance to upgrade its company.

[byu71]

I think the higher ups are as upset about individual lifestyle choices that violate LDS standards/values no matter where the youngster is going to school. I think they value BYU because it is an opportunity for the Church to demonstrate "in the world but not of." However, without viable college sports nobody will know whether or not BYU is "in the world."

There is no doubt that the viewing of BYU as a cultural exposure tool causes some unfortunate cases where individual needs are subordinated to tribal goals. I actually think that the BD incident has caused some re-evaluation of that trend.

I may have worded that poorly. Let me say it this way, they accept it as part of the process with some of the youth. Some slip, repent and grow. I think youth at Utah are thought of more as the youth of the church in general is thought of. BYU somehow is supposed to represent those who avoiding the slipping part.

[Goatnapper'96]

I may have worded that poorly. Let me say it this way, they accept it as part of the process with some of the youth. Some slip, repent and grow. I think youth at Utah are thought of more as the youth of the church in general is thought of. BYU somehow is supposed to represent those who avoiding the slipping part.

The mentality that BYU sports is an exposure tool is a double edged sword. With it comes the benefits that gives BYU certain advantages and with it comes certain disadvantages. Complaining about it is similar to Americans complaining about some pot smoking hippies demonstrating about something and creating a traffic jam.

Saying that I do think the impact on personal lives (i.e. Brandon Davies trauma) is something people are concerned about. I am interested to see how that incident dulls the sharp edges of some administration goals to demonstrate uniqueness. I think the attention of the hoops team was intoxicating and the incident will push folks, despite all the blather from Bronco and Holmoe about money from strangers and recruiting opportunities, more toward enforcing things more in your and mine kind of way.