Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[frank ryan]

Trump's second term will be filled with baby touching a hot stove moments. Whether or not he learns from them is anyone's guess. My guess is this will ultimately be one of those moments as he'll get burned but won't admit it.

The way Trump has behaved and spoken about Ukraine has been despicable. He lies about each party's intentions, the amount of money the US has spent, and who is responsible for the co flict to begin with. But there are basic facts that cant be just brushed aside.

To begin with, the US and especially Europe, have figuratively written checks it just cant cash out. Europe has had decades to build itself a viable defensive framework that isn't so dependent on the US. But instead, it has focused its funding on other priorities. Many European also countries willingly took the cheap resources Russia provided, all the while knowing they are bad actors. Obama warned them that the US will not always subsidize its defense. Russia saw this and rightly hypothesized that Europe could do little to help Ukraine and Georgia and would need to rely on the US to pick up the bulk. And eventually the US would grow tired.

European institutions are no different than every other western institutions crumbling right now. They could have recognized the reforms and changes necessary to survive, but haven't. Most institutions don't. I don't think NATO will dissappear, but for the next 4 years at least it will be dormant. And unfortunately I believe a world without NATO will be a less safe world. Authoritarian regimes will justify encroachments as part of their entitled spheres of influence. And Trump will have played a large role in allowing to it happen. But he isn't even the most responsible party and to pretend otherwise is folly.

Western institutions aren't crumbling they are being sabotaged and destroyed. Russia/China aren't beating us conventionally but through hybrid warfare.

Trump didn't sit by and allow the Western decline to happen he facilitated it. Btw, this isn't just conjecture but things that have been talked about his Christian nationalist friends.

MAGA doesn't care about the constitution. Elon doesn't.

The West did quite a bit to help Ukraine and if Trump did turn betrayer I think Ukraine pulls through. Putin has been unimpeded for years with this.

I strongly agree with some of what you've said. Some European countries, like Germany in particular took advantage of Russia's cheap gas. It was a poison pill. Putin has also groomed an array of far right allies in places like Hungary.

You seem to be giving Trump the benefit of the doubt when I think he increasingly shows he doesn't deserve it.

I encourage you to look into Alexander Dugin and the Foundations of Geopolitics. It's the Russian playbook and it's working.

[myboynoah]

Trump blusters. Trump name calls. Trump angers. Trump gets punched in the face. Trump folds. Trump declares victory.

The Art of the Deal.

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[Maximus]

Would you have a belief if you were Zelensky that this trip is dangerous with this admin

[LVAllen]

Would you have a belief if you were Zelensky that this trip is dangerous with this admin

How's the air traffic controller staffing at the airport where he's flying in?

[BigPiney]

This is a sad and interesting read about a Russian soldier that escaped to the West.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...aign=topunroll

[USUC]

What a shit show. What an absolute master class of assholery on behalf of Vance and Trump. The sad reality is that Ukraine with Zelensky as its leader is no longer a viable partner for this administration. The Ukrainian side will need to take this into account moving forward. Europe being so weak and fractured about this all is terrible luck for Zelensky. Such an embarrassment for US foreign policy.

Also, every western country needs to arm themselves, even with nukes, ASAP because the US isn't reliable.

[BlueK]

Fox cuts away when Trump goes unhinged and sounds like a lunatic. Yeah can't let their audience see that.

[RC Vikings]

What a shit show. What an absolute master class of assholery on behalf of Vance and Trump. The sad reality is that Ukraine with Zelensky as its leader is no longer a viable partner for this administration. The Ukrainian side will need to take this into account moving forward. Europe being so weak and fractured about this all is terrible luck for Zelensky. Such an embarrassment for US foreign policy.

Also, every western country needs to arm themselves, even with nukes, ASAP because the US isn't reliable.

It's embarrassing, I had hopes for Vance but he's got Trump's shit all over his nose. What's it's going to take for even the most hard core Trumpers to say "this was a bad Idea".

[BlueK]

It's embarrassing, I had hopes for Vance but he's got Trump's shit all over his nose. What's it's going to take for even the most hard core Trumpers to say "this was a bad Idea".

A crashed economy
A foreign cyber atrack that destroys major infrastructure
Another 9/11 type terrorist attack

All of these are frighteningly possible now with the insane incompetence.

[USUC]

It's embarrassing, I had hopes for Vance but he's got Trump's shit all over his nose. What's it's going to take for even the most hard core Trumpers to say "this was a bad Idea".

For the sake of Ukraine, their strategy needs to change in dealing with Trump. They must view Trump as a mob boss. Zelensky, while justified and entitled to do so, made a mistake to take the Vance bait and be confrontational. In retrospect, I'm sure Zelensky going to Pennsylvania and then having a presser with Kamala last fall was also a mistake. None of this justifies Trump's grotesque behavior. But I fear Zelenksy is no longer going to be a viable leader moving forward.

[USUC]

A crashed economy
A foreign cyber atrack that destroys major infrastructure
Another 9/11 type terrorist attack

All of these are frighteningly possible now with the insane incompetence.

Prices will kill this administration. This foreign policy stuff is a sour side show for most of the public. Biden couldn't survive high prices. Trump won't either. And nothing Trump is doing has been helpful for prices.

[Omaha 680]

That is perhaps the most disgusting thing I have ever seen a US President do in front of the cameras. Definitely the most disgusting thing a President and VP did in tandem. I am rarely surprised by Trump any more but this was a new horrific low.

[Maximus]

Prices will kill this administration. This foreign policy stuff is a sour side show for most of the public. Biden couldn't survive high prices. Trump won't either. And nothing Trump is doing has been helpful for prices.

then after 4 yrs a cycle upwards will happen and vance gets 4 yrs

[USUC]

then after 4 yrs a cycle upwards will happen and vance gets 4 yrs

That'll be up to who the Democrats nominate.

[Bo Diddley]

It saddens and sickens me that this is what our country voted for.