Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[Pelado]

Russian banks have been financial trump since the 80s when no one else would . Hmm

Guarantee there's lots of tapes

My recollection from before his first term is that he had lots of Russian financiers because nobody else would lend to him.

I don't think Biden was all that bad on Russia. You've got to take into account the amount of dreadful MAGA politicians, and Trump himself who delayed aid packages etc. Getting Finland and Sweden into NATO was Herculean, especially considering how Erdogan used that to shake multiple states down for bribes to approve the request and then had Orban (who curiously enough is a darling on the right wing, daily wire etc) also interfere. Orban had already softened sanctions etc.

I'd give Biden's foreign policy a passing grade considering what he inherited. He helped rehabilitate our relationship with the Philippines.

Some real failures and worries under his administration include sleeping as China's charm offensive occurs, particularly in Oceania. China is in the process of signing defensive pacts and securing the pretext for military bases and deployments. See the Solomon Islands. We've neglected this part of the world.
Africa is another region where Biden failed. Russia has instigated a string of coup de tats resulting in pushing out Western powers in resource rich and militarily key areas. China continues being China and using their money and influence to curry favor and gain power across the continent which is only going to become more important.

Of course Trump is worse. With him performative cutting off all aid to South Africa and than giving Afrikaners special refugee status. I'm still waiting to hear about the first planes to arrive with Afrikaners fleeing the country. I don't think you will see lots of takers because as problematic as the political situation is there; it's not like Somalia, or Sudan.

I think Biden should have given Ukraine weapons prior to the invasion even if that meant Putin would scream about being provoked. We should've armed them sooner and not hamstrung their response.

But no question Biden was better than Obama on Russia and Trump doesn't enter that equation at all because he advances Russian interests.

Biden's biggest foreign policy failure was the botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.

I felt like he handled the Russia-Ukraine conflict pretty well.

[frank ryan]

My recollection from before his first term is that he had lots of Russian financiers because nobody else would lend to him.



Biden's biggest foreign policy failure was the botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.

I felt like he handled the Russia-Ukraine conflict pretty well.

He was set up for failure when Trump released thousands of Taliban terrorists and began scuttling credibility with the Afghan gov, while withdrawing support at the same time. Trump left Biden with two choices; reverse course and reengage what would be a more bloody conflict than Trump had or stay on track to get out.

[Moliere]

Agree with most of this, but if Biden has done nothing, Ukraine would be a Russian territory now. He should have done more. He hesitated too much once the war started to drag on.

Biden slowed down Russia. Russia will still take Ukraine at some point, probably in the next decade.

[BigPiney]

Biden slowed down Russia. Russia will still take Ukraine at some point, probably in the next decade.

I had an interesting conversation tonight with someone that works for the DOD. He makes cool weapons. He said he Biden administration was slow but deliberate. He said the trump administration is a shit show. The people he has worked with from the administration are about as dumb as you would expect.

[myboynoah]

I had an interesting conversation tonight with someone that works for the DOD. He makes cool weapons. He said he Biden administration was slow but deliberate. He said the trump administration is a shit show. The people he has worked with from the administration are about as dumb as you would expect.

He has no idea how low my expectations are.

[Pelado]

He has no idea how low my expectations are.

Sad, but

[Jeff Lebowski]

He has no idea how low my expectations are.

Haha. Same.

[wally]

This logic that Ukraine must capitulate on their borders in order for us all to avoid WW3 is Russian propaganda bullshit. It isn't real. So don't be cowed by hollow threats coming out of Moscow.

Trump is a Russian asset. Don't ever trust that a deal he makes will be lasting or good for the Ukrainian people.

You don't know that. If Russia crosses certain lines, you know full well there will have to be escalation to some extent. If Russia decides to attack too close to a NATO nation or carries out operations on NATO soil to damage Ukraine supply chains, then we will see whether WW3 happens or not.

Let's assume this war drags out 20 years, what happens if Ukraine runs out of young people to fight this war? Who has to fight it then? If the answer is American soldiers, then I am not interested. I have draft-age sons and am not eager to send them off to fight for Ukraine, I'm sorry that is not a noble sentiment, that is just where I am at personally.

As far as trusting whether something is good for the Ukrainian people or not, I agree with you that I don't trust Trump gives a shit about that, and I don't trust that he will do what is in Ukraine's best interest. However, if I am forced to choose between the Donbas becoming part of Russia and American Troops deploying to Ukraine, I'm going to take the former, because I don't think it is in our best interest to fight this war (and unfortunately I am not convinced by your argument that the possibility of escalation is only propaganda).

In fact I am starting to think that Ukraine might already be a lost cause. Too little too late. The best thing Europe can do is learn from this and harden their defenses. Since we are talking about Russia, perhaps a cyber-security/ransomware analogy: sometimes depending on the situation, and the effect of loss of business data on the viability of the business, paying the ransom is worth the expense, however distasteful. Usually in this scenario, the business was caught unprepared and exposed. The only thing you can do in that situation is to move forward and harden defenses after the ransom. I am not too sure that we (read NATO) are not already in this position with Ukraine.

So to sum up: I am not a Trump fan. I don't particularly like the guy, but I can hold my nose and get behind decisions he makes that think are in the best interest of the Nation.

Disclaimer: I am willing to be convinced otherwise vis a vis my perspectives herein.

[myboynoah]

You don't know that. If Russia crosses certain lines, you know full well there will have to be escalation to some extent. If Russia decides to attack too close to a NATO nation or carries out operations on NATO soil to damage Ukraine supply chains, then we will see whether WW3 happens or not.

Let's assume this war drags out 20 years, what happens if Ukraine runs out of young people to fight this war? Who has to fight it then? If the answer is American soldiers, then I am not interested. I have draft-age sons and am not eager to send them off to fight for Ukraine, I'm sorry that is not a noble sentiment, that is just where I am at personally.

As far as trusting whether something is good for the Ukrainian people or not, I agree with you that I don't trust Trump gives a shit about that, and I don't trust that he will do what is in Ukraine's best interest. However, if I am forced to choose between the Donbas becoming part of Russia and American Troops deploying to Ukraine, I'm going to take the former, because I don't think it is in our best interest to fight this war (and unfortunately I am not convinced by your argument that the possibility of escalation is only propaganda).

In fact I am starting to think that Ukraine might already be a lost cause. Too little too late. The best thing Europe can do is learn from this and harden their defenses. Since we are talking about Russia, perhaps a cyber-security/ransomware analogy: sometimes depending on the situation, and the effect of loss of business data on the viability of the business, paying the ransom is worth the expense, however distasteful. Usually in this scenario, the business was caught unprepared and exposed. The only thing you can do in that situation is to move forward and harden defenses after the ransom. I am not too sure that we (read NATO) are not already in this position with Ukraine.

So to sum up: I am not a Trump fan. I don't particularly like the guy, but I can hold my nose and get behind decisions he makes that think are in the best interest of the Nation.

Disclaimer: I am willing to be convinced otherwise vis a vis my perspectives herein.

Thank you for laying that out there. I would love to see an end to this conflict, one in which Russians leave Ukrainian territory and Ukraine's freedom from Russian dominance is secured militarily. That might only be achieved via NATO membership. Russia and Putin should never benefit from this crime they have committed against Ukraine and it's people.

I think, given Putin's past actions, that we can be fairly secure that standing firmly behind Ukraine in negotiations and via continued support if negotiations fail will not result in WWIII. Again, that is Russian propaganda. Putin has backed away from every redline he has established in this conflict. So his threats don't carry much weight and can be countered via incremental support. He is not going to attack a NATO ally(?) to counter supply routes. Why would he do that now when he hasn't done it in the past? Plus, Russian capabilities are so degraded that they wouldn't even get close to any targets. And the attempt will end his regime.

I don't understand this: "if I am forced to choose between the Donbas becoming part of Russia and American Troops deploying to Ukraine, I'm going to take the former," This isn't on the table, and never has been. Ukraine is happy to fight it's own war against Russia, so let's let them, and give them the means to do so. That is the only way to credibly push back on Russian attempts to establish its brutal will in the region. It also sends a message to China to steer clear of Taiwan.

I don't agree Ukraine is lost. But if we could get a good peace deal to which the Ukrainians agreed, then that is their choice. But right now, they are not being give the choice. They aren't even invited to the table to because the Russians don't want them there. The Russians have already dealt with Ukraine and have come out having had their asses kicked. They know Trump is an idiot and can easily manipulated, so they want to deal with him. So I can never be persuaded to just hold my nose and get behind decisions Trump makes. He shits on everything he touches. The evidence of that is legion. No one, least of all the Ukrainians, should want him making deals for them.

[PaloAltoCougar]

U.S. siding with Russia in opposing the Europe-Ukraine U.N. resolution will be a shameful stain on our country's international standing. Trump hasn't recanted his statement that Ukraine started the war, won't call Putin a dictator (but Zelensky is?), and overlooks the thousands of war crimes for which Putin is indisputably responsible. Trump's foreign policy is proving to be worse than I had feared.

[myboynoah]

Trump is an embarrassment. All he do is make faces as Macron corrects him.

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[LVAllen]

Trump is an embarrassment. All he do is make faces as Macron corrects him.

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Let me Be Frank. Don't start beef with The Frank.

[chrisrenrut]

U.S. siding with Russia in opposing the Europe-Ukraine U.N. resolution will be a shameful stain on our country's international standing. Trump hasn't recanted his statement that Ukraine started the war, won't call Putin a dictator (but Zelensky is?), and overlooks the thousands of war crimes for which Putin is indisputably responsible. Trump's foreign policy is proving to be worse than I had feared.

This is a statement and not an accident. We could have abstained from the vote, both China and Iran did just that. What possible message could we be giving by throwing our vote with Russia and North Korea other than the obvious one? Trump and his ilk are Putin’s puppets. Just shocking that the greatest country this world has ever known is being brought to its knees by Putin.

[frank ryan]

U.S. siding with Russia in opposing the Europe-Ukraine U.N. resolution will be a shameful stain on our country's international standing. Trump hasn't recanted his statement that Ukraine started the war, won't call Putin a dictator (but Zelensky is?), and overlooks the thousands of war crimes for which Putin is indisputably responsible. Trump's foreign policy is proving to be worse than I had feared.

Trump is compromised.

[USUC]

Trump's second term will be filled with baby touching a hot stove moments. Whether or not he learns from them is anyone's guess. My guess is this will ultimately be one of those moments as he'll get burned but won't admit it.

The way Trump has behaved and spoken about Ukraine has been despicable. He lies about each party's intentions, the amount of money the US has spent, and who is responsible for the co flict to begin with. But there are basic facts that cant be just brushed aside.

To begin with, the US and especially Europe, have figuratively written checks it just cant cash out. Europe has had decades to build itself a viable defensive framework that isn't so dependent on the US. But instead, it has focused its funding on other priorities. Many European also countries willingly took the cheap resources Russia provided, all the while knowing they are bad actors. Obama warned them that the US will not always subsidize its defense. Russia saw this and rightly hypothesized that Europe could do little to help Ukraine and Georgia and would need to rely on the US to pick up the bulk. And eventually the US would grow tired.

European institutions are no different than every other western institutions crumbling right now. They could have recognized the reforms and changes necessary to survive, but haven't. Most institutions don't. I don't think NATO will dissappear, but for the next 4 years at least it will be dormant. And unfortunately I believe a world without NATO will be a less safe world. Authoritarian regimes will justify encroachments as part of their entitled spheres of influence. And Trump will have played a large role in allowing to it happen. But he isn't even the most responsible party and to pretend otherwise is folly.