Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[wally]

There is a coherent foreign policy position that pushes Europe to control their own defense (with actual consequences if they dont). But shitting on Ukraine while praising Russia is genuinely awful. And I believe it's only because Zelenski refused to go along with the Biden investigation. I think it's truly only because of his pettiness as opposed to actually believing Zelenski and Ukraine is a dictatorship. But his MAGA fans will believe this is all Ukraine's fault and their minds will never be changed.

I agree with you that shitting on Ukraine and Praising (let's say) Putin is genuinely awful. I also genuinely think that this war is headed in a direction of basically a decades-long conflict without some shifting priorities from the participants as well as other affected nations in Europe.

Assuming my assertions are correct, let's say Trump's genuinely awful rhetoric is effective in quickly creating a scenario where Ukraine is forced to capitulate on their borders (something I think is inevitable to avoid WW3) and there can be a brokered lasting peace. Do you think that the means are justified? This is where I find myself in these issues. I generally dislike Trump and his methods. But like it or not he is the President and I agree with his stated goal of negotiating peace in this conflict. If he can do that in his own obnoxious way, can I support it? I think I can.

It's like if BYU gets a win against an SEC team in football. Am I happy that the blue blood lost to an underdog team? Grudgingly, yes. Would I rather it have been a loss to Utah? Of course.

[USUC]

I agree with you that shitting on Ukraine and Praising (let's say) Putin is genuinely awful. I also genuinely think that this war is headed in a direction of basically a decades-long conflict without some shifting priorities from the participants as well as other affected nations in Europe.

Assuming my assertions are correct, let's say Trump's genuinely awful rhetoric is effective in quickly creating a scenario where Ukraine is forced to capitulate on their borders (something I think is inevitable to avoid WW3) and there can be a brokered lasting peace. Do you think that the means are justified? This is where I find myself in these issues. I generally dislike Trump and his methods. But like it or not he is the President and I agree with his stated goal of negotiating peace in this conflict. If he can do that in his own obnoxious way, can I support it? I think I can.

It's like if BYU gets a win against an SEC team in football. Am I happy that the blue blood lost to an underdog team? Grudgingly, yes. Would I rather it have been a loss to Utah? Of course.

I mean, from a realpolitic perspective, keeping the meat grinder status quo is preferable as it continues the degradation of Russian capabilities. But at the real expense of Ukrainian lives. I absolutely think all this scrambling by Europe to get serious about its own self defense is long over due. Obama even warned them. I'm not really sure what is the best way to bring this conflict to an end. There probably isn't one. But I will never be comfortable with the narrative that Trump and Vance are creating that Ukraine had it coming. That it's their fault. That is beyond the pale.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I agree with you that shitting on Ukraine and Praising (let's say) Putin is genuinely awful. I also genuinely think that this war is headed in a direction of basically a decades-long conflict without some shifting priorities from the participants as well as other affected nations in Europe.

Assuming my assertions are correct, let's say Trump's genuinely awful rhetoric is effective in quickly creating a scenario where Ukraine is forced to capitulate on their borders (something I think is inevitable to avoid WW3) and there can be a brokered lasting peace. Do you think that the means are justified? This is where I find myself in these issues. I generally dislike Trump and his methods. But like it or not he is the President and I agree with his stated goal of negotiating peace in this conflict. If he can do that in his own obnoxious way, can I support it? I think I can.

It's like if BYU gets a win against an SEC team in football. Am I happy that the blue blood lost to an underdog team? Grudgingly, yes. Would I rather it have been a loss to Utah? Of course.

How optimistic are you that "a lasting peace" will ever be achieved with Putin? Ending the war now under Trump's apparent terms (no NATO, no surrender of occupied territory) is exactly what Putin is hoping for and gives him a chance to rebuild his army and claim victory among his people. Putin's end game is to rectify what he regards was the "greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th Century," the breakup of the Soviet Empire. He's been piecemealing his way toward putting it back together again, which is why all of the surrounding countries, Ukraine, the Baltics, Poland, Moldova, Georgia, etc., look on in horror (and are doing more per capita than the U.S.) to stop it. Trump (and certainly Biden and Obama) should have been far more emphatic about forcing Russia to abide by its original agreements (see, e.g., the Budapest Memorandum) to respect its neighbor's borders, including Ukraine. We should still do that, while providing strong assurances that subject to Putin holding up his end of the agreements, U.S. and Europe will, too.

But Trump has been in the bag for Putin from the beginning, respecting Putin's statements more than U.S. intelligence (Helsinki 2018 and continuing today). It's telling that in the past 72 hours Trump has said many more negative (and wrong) things about Zelenskyy than he has about Putin in the past ten years.

[myboynoah]

GkZaQR0XoAA-YhN.jpg

[myboynoah]

I agree with you that shitting on Ukraine and Praising (let's say) Putin is genuinely awful. I also genuinely think that this war is headed in a direction of basically a decades-long conflict without some shifting priorities from the participants as well as other affected nations in Europe.

Assuming my assertions are correct, let's say Trump's genuinely awful rhetoric is effective in quickly creating a scenario where Ukraine is forced to capitulate on their borders (something I think is inevitable to avoid WW3) and there can be a brokered lasting peace. Do you think that the means are justified? This is where I find myself in these issues. I generally dislike Trump and his methods. But like it or not he is the President and I agree with his stated goal of negotiating peace in this conflict. If he can do that in his own obnoxious way, can I support it? I think I can.

It's like if BYU gets a win against an SEC team in football. Am I happy that the blue blood lost to an underdog team? Grudgingly, yes. Would I rather it have been a loss to Utah? Of course.

This logic that Ukraine must capitulate on their borders in order for us all to avoid WW3 is Russian propaganda bullshit. It isn't real. So don't be cowed by hollow threats coming out of Moscow.

Trump is a Russian asset. Don't ever trust that a deal he makes will be lasting or good for the Ukrainian people.

[Pelado]

This logic that Ukraine must capitulate on their borders in order for us all to avoid WW3 is Russian propaganda bullshit. It isn't real. So don't be cowed by hollow threats coming out of Moscow.

Trump is a Russian asset. Don't ever trust that a deal he makes will be lasting or good for the Ukrainian people.

His primary concern in any negotiation - "Is this good for me?"

[Moliere]

This logic that Ukraine must capitulate on their borders in order for us all to avoid WW3 is Russian propaganda bullshit. It isn't real. So don't be cowed by hollow threats coming out of Moscow.

Trump is a Russian asset. Don't ever trust that a deal he makes will be lasting or good for the Ukrainian people.

I'm not yet convinced that Trump is a Russian asset, but I pretty much agree with the rest of this. If Russia is allowed to have the land they currently control, no ceasefire or peace deal will last. Putin, or whoever takes over after he dies, will rearm and then find a technicality that allows them to attack Ukraine again. It's only a matter of time before Russia takes the entire country regardless of what president is in office. Obama didn't do anything to stop it. Trump didn't do anything to stop it. Biden didn't do anything to stop it. Trump 2.0 won't do anything to stop it.

[myboynoah]

GkVWiW9WoAEh9UK.jpg

[beefytee]

I'm not yet convinced that Trump is a Russian asset, but I pretty much agree with the rest of this. If Russia is allowed to have the land they currently control, no ceasefire or peace deal will last. Putin, or whoever takes over after he dies, will rearm and then find a technicality that allows them to attack Ukraine again. It's only a matter of time before Russia takes the entire country regardless of what president is in office. Obama didn't do anything to stop it. Trump didn't do anything to stop it. Biden didn't do anything to stop it. Trump 2.0 won't do anything to stop it.

Agree with most of this, but if Biden has done nothing, Ukraine would be a Russian territory now. He should have done more. He hesitated too much once the war started to drag on.

[frank ryan]

I'm not yet convinced that Trump is a Russian asset, but I pretty much agree with the rest of this. If Russia is allowed to have the land they currently control, no ceasefire or peace deal will last. Putin, or whoever takes over after he dies, will rearm and then find a technicality that allows them to attack Ukraine again. It's only a matter of time before Russia takes the entire country regardless of what president is in office. Obama didn't do anything to stop it. Trump didn't do anything to stop it. Biden didn't do anything to stop it. Trump 2.0 won't do anything to stop it.

What is the hardest part of considering that Trump may be under the spell of Putin? He has drastically altered our military, trade, diplomatic and intelligence strategies in ways that favor Russia, rather than us. Trump never has been a good or ethical person and Putin does this sort of thing (turncoating or blackmailing for leaders) all the time.

When I bring these things up, I'm often dismissed as a flat earther by people who haven't done much more than read or listen to right wing talking points.

You check out the documentary agents of chaos and read up on Alexander Dugin, not mention the Mueller report

[PaloAltoCougar]

Agree with most of this, but if Biden has done nothing, Ukraine would be a Russian territory now. He should have done more. He hesitated too much once the war started to drag on.

True, and I'd include his coalition building and the admission of Sweden and Finland to NATO as other Biden positives, sadly a short list.

[Maximus]

Russian banks have been financial trump since the 80s when no one else would . Hmm

Guarantee there's lots of tapes

[frank ryan]

True, and I'd include his coalition building and the admission of Sweden and Finland to NATO as other Biden positives, sadly a short list.

I don't think Biden was all that bad on Russia. You've got to take into account the amount of dreadful MAGA politicians, and Trump himself who delayed aid packages etc. Getting Finland and Sweden into NATO was Herculean, especially considering how Erdogan used that to shake multiple states down for bribes to approve the request and then had Orban (who curiously enough is a darling on the right wing, daily wire etc) also interfere. Orban had already softened sanctions etc.

I'd give Biden's foreign policy a passing grade considering what he inherited. He helped rehabilitate our relationship with the Philippines.

Some real failures and worries under his administration include sleeping as China's charm offensive occurs, particularly in Oceania. China is in the process of signing defensive pacts and securing the pretext for military bases and deployments. See the Solomon Islands. We've neglected this part of the world.
Africa is another region where Biden failed. Russia has instigated a string of coup de tats resulting in pushing out Western powers in resource rich and militarily key areas. China continues being China and using their money and influence to curry favor and gain power across the continent which is only going to become more important.

Of course Trump is worse. With him performative cutting off all aid to South Africa and than giving Afrikaners special refugee status. I'm still waiting to hear about the first planes to arrive with Afrikaners fleeing the country. I don't think you will see lots of takers because as problematic as the political situation is there; it's not like Somalia, or Sudan.

I think Biden should have given Ukraine weapons prior to the invasion even if that meant Putin would scream about being provoked. We should've armed them sooner and not hamstrung their response.

But no question Biden was better than Obama on Russia and Trump doesn't enter that equation at all because he advances Russian interests.

[frank ryan]

Russian banks have been financial trump since the 80s when no one else would . Hmm

Guarantee there's lots of tapes

There is loads of solidly sourced journalism which predates him being a candidate about his connections to Russia. I'm up for disagreeing but crying "TDS," or "Russiagate," and having no interest discussing the actual concerns and retorting with eye rolls is lazy and unhelpful.

I think part of the problem is that our media diets are become increasing full of junk food media. That's not good for discourse, government, progress, debate etc.

[myboynoah]

I'm not yet convinced that Trump is a Russian asset, but I pretty much agree with the rest of this. If Russia is allowed to have the land they currently control, no ceasefire or peace deal will last. Putin, or whoever takes over after he dies, will rearm and then find a technicality that allows them to attack Ukraine again. It's only a matter of time before Russia takes the entire country regardless of what president is in office. Obama didn't do anything to stop it. Trump didn't do anything to stop it. Biden didn't do anything to stop it. Trump 2.0 won't do anything to stop it.

If it looks like duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is a fat pant load like a duck, it's a duck.

Codename Krasnov.

GkWRg4KWwAAWGmq.jpg