Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[PaloAltoCougar]

I break from the actual LP on this. I believe in forming alliances with countries that value civil liberties. So yeah, I don't totally agree with the party on that.

It would be interesting (but horrific and tragic, I think) to see what the world would like like today if pure libertarian values had been applied beginning in, say, 1938. If the U.S. were resolute in not intervening militarily or financially with foreign countries, would things be better today? Imagine an unfettered Hitler and or Stalin, or Europe without the Marshall Plan.

We'd like to think that over time humankind will naturally embrace democratic ideals and individual liberty. But despotic autocracies are the default setting for human governance, and without promoting our ideals abroad, and remaining vigilant domestically, things would devolve rapidly.

[Uncle Ted]

It would be interesting (but horrific and tragic, I think) to see what the world would like like today if pure libertarian values had been applied beginning in, say, 1938. If the U.S. were resolute in not intervening militarily or financially with foreign countries, would things be better today? Imagine an unfettered Hitler and or Stalin, or Europe without the Marshall Plan.

We'd like to think that over time humankind will naturally embrace democratic ideals and individual liberty. But despotic autocracies are the default setting for human governance, and without promoting our ideals abroad, and remaining vigilant domestically, things would devolve rapidly.

So you are thinking that libertarians would have done nothing after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? Before then the US was very much in isolationist mode. Then it was in the mode of saving a couple cities in Japan from traditional bombing so we could wipe them off the face of the earth to demonstrate our atomic weapons. I don’t think libertarians have any problem with that given they like the 2nd amendment, guns, and sh*t.

[USUC]

It would be interesting (but horrific and tragic, I think) to see what the world would like like today if pure libertarian values had been applied beginning in, say, 1938. If the U.S. were resolute in not intervening militarily or financially with foreign countries, would things be better today? Imagine an unfettered Hitler and or Stalin, or Europe without the Marshall Plan.

We'd like to think that over time humankind will naturally embrace democratic ideals and individual liberty. But despotic autocracies are the default setting for human governance, and without promoting our ideals abroad, and remaining vigilant domestically, things would devolve rapidly.

Just to pipe in a bit, there are plenty of libertarians who are not isolationist. The Cato wing is globalist and believes in a foreign policy centered on free trade. They also are not against military intervention when it directly affects the security of our country. Not in the abstract and malicious way we entered the Iraq war of course. But the Japanese attacked the country directly and Hitler declared war on us. WWII is quite different than Vietnam, Iraq, and a number of the other campaigns.

[Uncle Ted]

Ah, stop all your b*tching. At least Drumpf isn’t in the White House any more.

[PaloAltoCougar]

So you are thinking that libertarians would have done nothing after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? Before then the US was very much in isolationist mode. Then it was in the mode of saving a couple cities in Japan from traditional bombing so we could wipe them off the face of the earth to demonstrate our atomic weapons. I don’t think libertarians have any problem with that given they like the 2nd amendment, guns, and sh*t.

No, I am not thinking that. I acknowledge that libertarians would fight after they were attacked (I imagine you sitting in your home very eager to blow away any intruder). But your apparent belief that the U.S. was doing nothing prior to December 7 (and presumably would have done nothing if Japan hadn't attacked), is simply wrong. The U.S. was already sending billions in military aid to Europe. If it had followed truly libertarian principles (not with Catoesque modifications) and done nothing until it was attacked, I think it's very likely Germany would have taken over the continent.

Just to pipe in a bit, there are plenty of libertarians who are not isolationist. The Cato wing is globalist and believes in a foreign policy centered on free trade. They also are not against military intervention when it directly affects the security of our country. Not in the abstract and malicious way we entered the Iraq war of course. But the Japanese attacked the country directly and Hitler declared war on us. WWII is quite different than Vietnam, Iraq, and a number of the other campaigns.

Understood. I was referring to what I understand (perhaps erroneously, I admit) to be pure libertarianism which is no military or financial assistance to foreign countries. I obviously prefer, at the very least, a Cato-like approach to world affairs. Where I struggle is the "when it directly affects the security of our country" issue. How direct and substantial must the threat be? The invasion of Iraq was a huge blunder. On the other hand, I think our military presence in other countries and substantial foreign aid expenditures have, overall, helped suppress autocratic encroachment, to our and the world's overall benefit.

[Non Sequitur]

It would be interesting (but horrific and tragic, I think) to see what the world would like like today if pure libertarian values had been applied beginning in, say, 1938. If the U.S. were resolute in not intervening militarily or financially with foreign countries, would things be better today? Imagine an unfettered Hitler and or Stalin, or Europe without the Marshall Plan.

We'd like to think that over time humankind will naturally embrace democratic ideals and individual liberty. But despotic autocracies are the default setting for human governance, and without promoting our ideals abroad, and remaining vigilant domestically, things would devolve rapidly.

Mike Lee and Rand Paul both like to say they lean Libertarian. So does Matt Gaetz. That's a big pot of loathsome.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Thank heavens FDR come up with the lend-lease program prior to pearl harbor to get around the libertarians who were on the wrong side of history in perhaps the most critical time in history.

[Moliere]

Guys, can we all just agree that Romney was exactly correct and that Obama, Trump and Biden totally whiffed on Putin?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Guys, can we all just agree that Romney was exactly correct and that Obama, Trump and Biden totally whiffed on Putin?

Absolutely

[LVAllen]

It would be interesting (but horrific and tragic, I think) to see what the world would like like today if pure libertarian values had been applied beginning in, say, 1938. If the U.S. were resolute in not intervening militarily or financially with foreign countries, would things be better today? Imagine an unfettered Hitler and or Stalin, or Europe without the Marshall Plan.

We'd like to think that over time humankind will naturally embrace democratic ideals and individual liberty. But despotic autocracies are the default setting for human governance, and without promoting our ideals abroad, and remaining vigilant domestically, things would devolve rapidly.

As a reminder, Woodrow Wilson's re-election campaign involved such themes as "America First" and "He Kept Us Out of War." Sound familiar?

[Jeff Lebowski]

As a reminder, Woodrow Wilson's re-election campaign involved such themes as "America First" and "He Kept Us Out of War." Sound familiar?

Until Trump came along, WW was the worst president of the last 100 years.

[Bo Diddley]

Guys, can we all just agree that Romney was exactly correct and that Obama, Trump and Biden totally whiffed on Putin?

I read an article on KSL.com about it. Some of the comments were equally hilarious and sad at the same time.

[Non Sequitur]

Guys, can we all just agree that Romney was exactly correct and that Obama, Trump and Biden totally whiffed on Putin?

When I was young, dumb and full of...hope, I was a Buckley/Safire style conservative. With the exception of Romney and a few others, that type of conservative no longer exists in the GOP. I don't know if I'd ever vote for Romney, but I certainly do respect him.

[Uncle Ted]

Until Trump came along, WW was the worst president of the last 100 years.

And then Biden came along... Biden Starts 2022 Trailing Trump by Average of Nearly 5 Points

[Uncle Ted]

No, I am not thinking that. I acknowledge that libertarians would fight after they were attacked (I imagine you sitting in your home very eager to blow away any intruder). But your apparent belief that the U.S. was doing nothing prior to December 7 (and presumably would have done nothing if Japan hadn't attacked), is simply wrong. The U.S. was already sending billions in military aid to Europe. If it had followed truly libertarian principles (not with Catoesque modifications) and done nothing until it was attacked, I think it's very likely Germany would have taken over the continent.

Of course, the US was doing stuff before Dec 7th... They were being war time capitalists selling arms (on credit) to those fighting over in Europe. Very libertarian.