A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To Jerusalem: Gaza/Israel conflict

[Non Sequitur]

"A baby getting shot during an attack"? How about babies being attacked as the primary target? Or more likely executed after a house was captured? The way you speak about the hamas attack is as if it was a military operation and civilians got caught up in the crossfire. With this alternate reality I can see how you arrive at moral equivalence between dead Israeli civilians and the dead Gazan civilians due to the coming Israeli invasion.

As far as the reason why the world isn't calling for immediate destruction of the Putin regime, I don't think this is a serious question as you are much smarter than that. While morality often screams for intervention, global/national interests and reality obviously have to be considered. If Putin could be toppled by the west without risking world War 3 or a breakup of the Russian federation which still has thousands of nuclear warheads, he would have been dead months ago. But we have to deal in reality. Saying we should topple putin to be consistent is as crazy as your gaza peace plan above which includes incorporation of gaza into Israel and potential israeli ctizenship for gazans.

It's okay if it's a military operation? We attacked, invaded and waged war on Iraq, based on a made-up WMD threat. When it was over, we gained nothing and 300,000 innocent Iraqis were dead. Here in the U.S. we might think we're morally cool because it was a military operation, but I don't think the families of the dead 300,000 Iraqis give a shit whether it was a military operation or a targeted terrorist attack. All of this talk of moral equivalence is horseshit. How many dead babies were buried in Iraq? Are we morally superior, because we killed them with drones and never looked them in the eye before we killed them? When it comes to the Middle East, we all have blood on our hands.

[Moliere]

They missed the signs because bibi is incompetent

Ah, I read it incorrectly.

[Eddie]

I think this piece makes some interesting observations of what Israel is doing and why and parallels to the war with Hezbollah in 2006.

https://dnyuz.com/2023/10/14/why-isr...ting-this-way/

Perhaps one of the biggest issues for Palestine/Gaza/Hamas at this point is the fact that they did have some form of relative ceasefire for an extended period of time. And during that time, Israel now knows that Hamas was building up its capacity to do an attack like we saw.

I'm thinking that Israel won't be satisfied to return to the relatively limited conflict that was happening before this attack. It will be difficult to leave Gaza to govern itself knowing that there's a good chance that a time of relatively little conflict just means there are groups building up their capacity to again cross the border and attack Israelis.

So what does Israel see as its options? Clearly what was isn't an option - because of what it resulted in. So does this mean increased patrols? Increased security checks throughout the area? Rights or freedoms being reduced even further than they are now?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, I suppose. But I don't see any resolution or good ending for anyone.

[Omaha 680]

It's okay if it's a military operation? We attacked, invaded and waged war on Iraq, based on a made-up WMD threat. When it was over, we gained nothing and 300,000 innocent Iraqis were dead. Here in the U.S. we might think we're morally cool because it was a military operation, but I don't think the families of the dead 300,000 Iraqis give a shit whether it was a military operation or a targeted terrorist attack. All of this talk of moral equivalence is horseshit. How many dead babies were buried in Iraq? Are we morally superior, because we killed them with drones and never looked them in the eye before we killed them? When it comes to the Middle East, we all have blood on our hands.

Good grief. I never said it was ok and I never mentioned Iraq. We are talking about Israel vs Hamas.

[old_gregg]

It's okay if it's a military operation? We attacked, invaded and waged war on Iraq, based on a made-up WMD threat. When it was over, we gained nothing and 300,000 innocent Iraqis were dead. Here in the U.S. we might think we're morally cool because it was a military operation, but I don't think the families of the dead 300,000 Iraqis give a shit whether it was a military operation or a targeted terrorist attack. All of this talk of moral equivalence is horseshit. How many dead babies were buried in Iraq? Are we morally superior, because we killed them with drones and never looked them in the eye before we killed them? When it comes to the Middle East, we all have blood on our hands.

smooth brain

[Non Sequitur]

smooth brain

Good retort. Well done.

[Green Monstah]

I've gone round and round internally on this.

In the end, if Hamas is intentionally using civilians as human shields, then the moral culpability rest with them.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've gone round and round internally on this.

In the end, if Hamas is intentionally using civilians as human shields, then the moral culpability rest with them.

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[frank ryan]

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Disgusting

[Omaha 680]

This should not be surprising to anyone. Hamas has overtly used their own civilians, especially children, as human shields at least since the Israeli pullout from Gaza. They have always played this propaganda war of intentionally maximizing deaths of their own non-combatants and then selling it to the west who lap it up. They have never hidden this, there is just a brighter light shone on it at the moment.

Related to the last couple pages of this thread, CNN summary of the attack on the music festival. You know, the kind of thing that happens all the time in war where the west will target a party and then throw grenades into the bomb shelters where the people run to hide. Followed by hunting down and executing those who escape the initial attack:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyX-h...c4MmM1YmI2Ng==

[fusnik]

I've gone round and round internally on this.

In the end, if Hamas is intentionally using civilians as human shields, then the moral culpability rest with them.

The blame lies with Hamas and they should be treated like the murderous terrorists they are. Nobody should really have any problem with that. If Israel and the West kill every member of Hamas and occupy Gaza is there really going to be much pushback?

The ongoing discussion, for me at least, is the extent at which the IDF and by proxy the US government participate in the killing of women and children. So many here cavalierly talk about leveling the strip, starving innocents, and think that since it’s not Russia this couldn’t possibly lead to a wider conflict.

60% or the deaths of Palestinians thus far has been women and children. I’m sure it’s their fault though since they happened to be born on one side of a fence and not the other.

[PaloAltoCougar]

The daughter of some close friends has been at BYU's Jerusalem Center this fall. She called this morning and, above the sound of explosions, reported she was at the Tel Aviv airport as they're sending the students to Athens. There were delays at the airport, including a moment when they were told to lay flat on the ground for a bit, but they were finally able to board and leave the country.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The daughter of some close friends has been at BYU's Jerusalem Center this fall. She called this morning and, above the sound of explosions, reported she was at the Tel Aviv airport as they're sending the students to Athens. There were delays at the airport, including a moment when they were told to lay flat on the ground for a bit, but they were finally able to board and leave the country.

My wife and I were planning on a trip to Israel in the spring. That is not happening now.

[Omaha 680]

The ongoing discussion, for me at least, is the extent at which the IDF and by proxy the US government participate in the killing of women and children. So many here cavalierly talk about leveling the strip, starving innocents, and think that since it’s not Russia this couldn’t possibly lead to a wider conflict.

Again so many straw men I think Im about to tap out. So many here talk cavalierly about leveling the strip? Who and how many is so many? The russia comment is obviously directed at my response, so I will rebut, but the differences between ukraine and gaza from a strategic and risk perspective are entirely obvous. I never said the israel invasion couldnt lead to a wider conflict. That is the primary concern of any thinking person. But the catalysts to escalation in each conflict are very different. Israel has a finite window in which they can dismantle Hamas and improve their security situation going forward, with the lowest risk a wider conflict. The longer they wait and if they allow hamas to claim any kind of victory, groups on their other borders will be more likely to pounce and those are the dominoes that could draw Syrian and Iran directly and then potentially russia. I am under no delusion that Israel isn't on a knife's edge but I also believe swift destruction of hamas is the surest way to avoid other bad actors jumping in to the conflict. I am not blind to the costs of this action nor am I cavalier about it.

60% or the deaths of Palestinians thus far has been women and children. I’m sure it’s their fault though since they happened to be born on one side of a fence and not the other.

I don't recall anyone saying it was their fault. I do recall almost everyone saying it is Hamas's fault.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Hamas terrorist put on a GoPro and filmed himself hunting down and shooting Israeli civilians in their homes. It ends with him being shot by IDF forces walking through some homes.

WARNING: Not for the faint of heart.

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