"Hold my root beer" - the Russell M. Nelson thread

[Bo Diddley]

I think you're equivocating. "Finger Pointer" in the context of my statement is someone who is clearly at fault, but deflects blame to others. "Finger Pointer" in your statement: "Anyone who identifies the person who is actually at fault."

I usually use the second definition as well. I like how ETB put it: pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.

[tooblue]

I think you're equivocating. "Finger Pointer" in the context of my statement is someone who is clearly at fault, but deflects blame to others. "Finger Pointer" in your statement: "Anyone who identifies the person who is actually at fault."

In its most basic sense (and definition) finger pointing is "the imputation of blame or responsibility." And you clearly wish to assign blame, or for blame to be assigned despite the fact, as Creekster has aptly pointed out, the statement appears designed to avoid placing blame at all.

[Bo Diddley]

In its most basic sense (and definition) finger pointing is "the imputation of blame or responsibility." And you clearly wish to assign blame, or for blame to be assigned despite the fact, as Creekster has aptly pointed out, the statement appears designed to avoid placing blame at all.

Wait, are you pointing a finger at GM for pointing a finger at finger pointers? STOP THE MADNESS!!!

[tooblue]

Wait, are you pointing a finger at GM for pointing a finger at finger pointers? STOP THE MADNESS!!!

Dang it

[Green Monstah]

Spoiler alert: This practice is going to continue to pop up from time to time in the future. Human nature.

And the natural man is an enemy to God.

[Green Monstah]

In its most basic sense (and definition) finger pointing is "the imputation of blame or responsibility." And you clearly wish to assign blame, or for blame to be assigned despite the fact, as Creekster has aptly pointed out, the statement appears designed to avoid placing blame at all.

Then consider my use of "finger pointer" as I defined it above.

I don't really want to belabor this point. Perhaps this is a personal personality flaw where unnecessary insistence of blamelessness is an indicium of culpability and dishonesty.

In this case, I think the fault is clearly shared by rogue missionaries and mission presidents, statistical pressure from salt lake, and the fact that for 20 years, the church's standard was for missionaries to invite investigators to be baptized on the second meeting, instead of the first, which is in and of itself a high-pressure tactic. By being overly defensive, he makes the church look culpable (and dishonest) in my eyes, and I don't like it when I feel the church is not being honest.

At any rate: SWEET! we're headed in the right direction on convert baptisms.

[tooblue]

Then consider my use of "finger pointer" as I defined it above.

I don't really want to belabor this point. Perhaps this is a personal personality flaw where unnecessary insistence of blamelessness is an indicium of culpability and dishonesty.

In this case, I think the fault is clearly shared by rogue missionaries and mission presidents, statistical pressure from salt lake, and the fact that for 20 years, the church's standard was for missionaries to invite investigators to be baptized on the second meeting, instead of the first, which is in and of itself a high-pressure tactic. By being overly defensive, he makes the church look culpable (and dishonest) in my eyes, and I don't like it when I feel the church is not being honest.

At any rate: SWEET! we're headed in the right direction on convert baptisms.

I can understand your sentiment and how it could make you feel uncomfortable. In a sense the statement strikes me as clumsy, but it is precisely that clumsiness that brings me comfort.

I served as a missionary during the time frame indicated and I had a very different experience than what appears to be expressed by a few posters here. My mission president who is a current member of the twelve started down that path at one point and then course corrected. I feel I truly saw miracles during my mission, and it was due to the patient and compassionate manner in which he dealt with missionaries. He was wonderfully pragmatic in his approach. His mandate was for us to get out the door, open our mouths and avoid doing stupid things. It was a remarkable experience and I look back on that time in my life with great fondness.

[swampfrog]

Spoiler alert: This practice is going to continue to pop up from time to time in the future. Human nature.

I get this. I'm interested in what cultural practices can be implemented to minimize it. I argue that one of the main purposes (may even be *the* purpose) of a religious cultural organization is exactly providing a bulwark against the negative aspects of human nature. The tendency for a top-down hierarchical structure is to ossify and corrupt in a tyrannical direction. The organization is necessary though because it's an effective way of installing moral software into humans--the community created is a necessary component. I've made the same argument before that a religion's primary purpose is preservation, which inherently includes the preservation of bad practices.

The natural man is an enemy to God, D&C 121, etc.

I obviously have longstanding personal involvement with this particular practice that I'm still working out.

But we can be better can't we? What's the secret to getting the organization to recognize its blind spots more quickly and correct them more efficiently?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I get this. I'm interested in what cultural practices can be implemented to minimize it. I argue that one of the main purposes (may even be *the* purpose) of a religious cultural organization is exactly providing a bulwark against the negative aspects of human nature. The tendency for a top-down hierarchical structure is to ossify and corrupt in a tyrannical direction. The organization is necessary though because it's an effective way of installing moral software into humans--the community created is a necessary component. I've made the same argument before that a religion's primary purpose is preservation, which inherently includes the preservation of bad practices.

The natural man is an enemy to God, D&C 121, etc.

I obviously have longstanding personal involvement with this particular practice that I'm still working out.

But we can be better can't we? What's the secret to getting the organization to recognize its blind spots more quickly and correct them more efficiently?

Not sure. But I like our recent trajectory. Of all of the changes instituted by Pres. Nelson, I suspect the most significant and long-lasting impact of his presidency will be a fundamental change to our leadership culture - that it is OK to make bold changes.

[Moliere]

Spoiler alert: This practice is going to continue to pop up from time to time in the future. Human nature.

Like the “we are changing the baptism rules for kids with homosexual parents even though we instituted that rule by revelation only four years ago”. Human nature.

[creekster]

Like the “we are changing the baptism rules for kids with homosexual parents even though we instituted that rule by revelation only four years ago”. Human nature.

No. It's not like that at all, and I am sure that with even a few seconds of reflection you can see the difference. But congratulations, you did get to make your point even though it wasn't germane and I am sure that makes you feel better, if not good.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Not sure. But I like our recent trajectory. Of all of the changes instituted by Pres. Nelson, I suspect the most significant and long-lasting impact of his presidency will be a fundamental change to our leadership culture - that it is OK to make bold changes.

Wouldn't there have to be bold changes made first to create a culture that bold changes are okay?

I wouldn't really characterize any of the changes made as "bold."

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wouldn't there have to be bold changes made first to create a culture that bold changes are okay?

I wouldn't really characterize any of the changes made as "bold."

Funk you have no credibility on this topic. Sorry.

[All-American]

Funk you have no credibility on this topic. Sorry.

Go easy on him. He’s still getting over the WOW rumors from last conference not panning out.

[Uncle Ted]

Church announces replacement for Boy Scouts, Personal Progress: 'Children and Youth'

The new initiative to replace the Boy Scouts and Personal Progress programs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is called "Children and Youth" and will be rolled out in September in a special worldwide satellite broadcast.


The church is exiting its century-old relationship with Scouting and retiring some of its other core activities for teenagers, like Personal Progress in its Young Women program.


President M. Russell Ballard, the acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, will lay out the new initiative to replace those programs in a broadcast on Sept. 29, according to a letter sent Monday to general authorities and officers of the church and local leaders around the world. Elder Gerrit W. Gong of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles will host a Face to Face broadcast about "Children and Youth" on Nov. 17.
[...]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900080061/church-replacement-for-boy-scouts-personal-progress-lds-mormon.html