The June 1

[imanihonjin]

From the perspective of your grandchildren.
at least the ones who think the church should not be run like a business.

So you envision a church that has no line of authority? Sounds like chaos.

[SoonerCoug]

From what perspective? Again, agree with it or not, but the Church doesn't appear to want to go down the road of allowing the church to turn into some sort of democracy where the Kate Kellys of the world can lobby to effectuate the change they deem is necessary for the entire church. So it doesn't really matter what Kate Kelly was advocating, the point is she tried to lead from a non leadership position. This type of problem is not unique to the Church....go ahead and start railing against the chief medical officer at your hospital and when he asks you in private to stop, go ahead and continue down that path....I bet you dollars to donuts you would be fired in short order.

You're forgetting something.

While you're entirely correct that complaining about authority will land a person in trouble, you're forgetting to consider the entire notion of moral authority.

This is the problem with religion in general and Mormonism in particular. You feel devotion to the Church's authority under the misguided assumption that they are linked to the divine, and therefore should be respected and obeyed at any cost.

This is a characteristic of totalitarian or authoritarian societies. The brain is checked at the door and authority from on high is valued above all else. It's this type of society that led to the holocaust, labor camps (Soviet Union and North Korea) and so on.

A fine example of this was the young German guy who was excommunicated by the Church for speaking out against the Nazi regime after an LDS general authority reminded the German saints to be loyal supporters of their government.

There is a higher law than the Church's law. Just because they claim a connection to the divine doesn't make racism or sexism OK.

[imanihonjin]

You're forgetting something.

While you're entirely correct that complaining about authority will land a person in trouble, you're forgetting to consider the entire notion of moral authority.

This is the problem with religion in general and Mormonism in particular. You feel devotion to the Church's authority under the misguided assumption that they are linked to the divine, and therefore should be respected and obeyed at any cost.

This is a characteristic of totalitarian or authoritarian societies. The brain is checked at the door and authority from on high is valued above all else. It's this type of society that led to the holocaust, labor camps (Soviet Union and North Korea) and so on.

A fine example of this was the young German guy who was excommunicated by the Church for speaking out against the Nazi regime after an LDS general authority reminded the German saints to be loyal supporters of their government.

There is a higher law than the Church's law. Just because they claim a connection to the divine doesn't make racism or sexism OK.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Dehlin's case was postponed by his SP so no decision has been reached yet. I think the case against Dehlin is much weaker.

If nobody else is disciplined by next Monday I want this thread locked for false advertising.

[byu71]

By vindicated, I mean none of our grandchildren will look on this excommunication as a good decision.

You may be right. If this church is like any other organization, you probably will be right.

[YOhio]

If nobody else is disciplined by next Monday I want this thread locked for false advertising.

Either that happens or I'm going to exercise my authority as a member of the Executive Committee and change the title to The June 1, consequences be damned.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Either that happens or I'm going to exercise my authority as a member of the Executive Committee and change the title to The June 1, consequences be damned.

That's badass.

[frank ryan]

And what about Tom Phillips? When are they going to excommunicate him? It is not like Kate Kelly tried to sue the church and haul TSM to court. Or does he have a "get out of excommunication" card? If there is a "purge" going on it looks like they are being very selective.

That's because according to Phillips he has had his calling and election made sure. I guess the whole second endowment thing makes you excommunicatable?

[SoonerCoug]

I don't disagree with anything you said.

I guess I misunderstood your post then

[ERCougar]

So you envision a church that has no line of authority? Sounds like chaos.

Um....no.

also, i probably should have said "really poorly run business" before. I've never been denied an audience with my ceo.

[Maximus]

Um....no.

also, i probably should have said "really poorly run business" before. I've never been denied an audience with my ceo.

so a ceo should meet with anyone in a 15 million person company anytime they want something changed?

[ERCougar]

so a ceo should meet with anyone in a 15 million person company anytime they want something changed?

the leader of a major "threatening" movement? before firing him/her, an action that would result in absolutely horrible press? yeah.

[SoonerCoug]

I'm starting to wonder if centralization is the Church's biggest problem (aside from God).

They are trying to have it both ways. Salt Lake pushes for discipline of apostates while simultaneously claiming it's a local matter. If local churches were a little more variable in policy and doctrine, and if people could choose which LDS church to attend, you'd end up with more freedom although a different set of problems would arise. I must admit that Protestants have done something right in this regard.

[byu71]

so a ceo should meet with anyone in a 15 million person company anytime they want something changed?

I think the vast majority of organizations not only will not cater to them, they will find a way to get rid of them. That will happen in very tolerant and open organizations. Hasn't this site had a vew people booted or run off by the "in" group?

[DrumNFeather]

Hardy har har...

Don't be so disingenuous, my mean-spirited friend. You know I have always been against excommunication, including these two cases. My point is, Kate Kelly was asked to stop doing something by her SP and she refused. What has Dehlin done besides confess that he doesn't believe a few things (I admit I don't follow him much, so I could be missing something)? I am struggling to see what kind of argument they would make in his case.

By the way, I agree your general point. It would look bad.

Well, he did organize all those Mormon Swingers Stories Conferences...