The June 1

[Commando]

No matter what you think of Kate Kelly's statements or whether she is wearing sleeves or not (which is obviously a vital point brought up by KC), the fact remains that the Church is a patriarchal, sexist organization. Kate Kelly deserves credit for being brave enough to say it vocally in a church where dissenters are excommunicated by kangaroo courts.

How did your kangaroo court go?

[SoonerCoug]

I'm not making a judgement on that. I'm saying that if the idea is to change the hearts and minds of people inside the church, it's probably not the best idea to throw up obvious and unnecessary roadblocks from the beginning.

Then that is the problem of people inside the Church! It's not her problem the average Mormon is nutso. She is wearing what she wants to wear. Big freaking deal.

Critiquing the clothing choices of a Mormon woman who was just excommunicated for advocating gender equality? For any reason. Wow.

[SeattleUte]

I think the case against Dehlin is much weaker.

In this context a statement such as this is laughable on so many levels.

[byu71]

Basically, the more she talks, the worse she looks.


That garbage about being the smartest, having the most friends, and having the most reporters interested in you just doesn't strike chords with anyone.

I have been led to believe this is a very bright, sincere person. I saw her first interview and while she might be a nice person, she does not come across as either bright or sincere. She was lucky she had a sports guy interviewing her. An experienced interviewer could have made her look quite foolish.

However, I do have to give her credit for getting publicity. One of my kids called me up and asked if I had seen that lady on TV who wants to be in an Elders quorum.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

I'm inclined to believe that Kate is like most Mormon women--a few garment unfriendly shirts in the closet for (a) vacationing at the beach, or (b) those days that are so damn hot, you'll do just about anything to get rid of that bulky under-layer. saved in modestly by a rainbow assortment of Shade undershirts!

FIFY

[ERCougar]

I agree she's made some PR gaffes--appearing on camera instead of in her court of love, going sleeveless (I'm ashamed to admit that it was the first thing I noticed too), going a little strong on the rhetoric (although I've said before on here that I think there's a strange quasi-abusive dynamic to courts of love and they are absolutely patriarchal), etc. I think she's taking advice from "friends" who may have different aims than she does. Or maybe she's just pissed off and has had enough. I couldn't blame her for that.

She's still going to be vindicated in the end.

[Green Monstah]

FIFY

Touche. My wife is not a fan fo the Shade shirts (an even more bulky underlayer!)

[byu71]

She's still going to be vindicated in the end.

How so? Do you mean her excommunication will be overturned because it was done improperly?

As a side note I find the discussion of her bare arms humorous. She had on a green dress and nice glasses. Other than that nothing in her appearance was very striking as far as I was concerned.

If she is vindicated her next project could be sleeveless garments.

[imanihonjin]

I agree she's made some PR gaffes--appearing on camera instead of in her court of love, going sleeveless (I'm ashamed to admit that it was the first thing I noticed too), going a little strong on the rhetoric (although I've said before on here that I think there's a strange quasi-abusive dynamic to courts of love and they are absolutely patriarchal), etc. I think she's taking advice from "friends" who may have different aims than she does. Or maybe she's just pissed off and has had enough. I couldn't blame her for that.

She's still going to be vindicated in the end.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that she will be vindicated if the church decides to ordain women? I am not sure that is vindication for her. Her excommunication has to do more with the way she has gone about things rather than the underlying message she has shared. She was specifically asked to discontinue her course of action and she repeatedly ignored these requests. Even up to the last moment she was lashing out. Agree with it or not, trying to lead the church from a non leadership position will continue to get you excommunicated for the foreseeable future. I don't see that changing even if the Church ultimately concludes that women should be allowed to hold the priesthood.

[ERCougar]

By vindicated, I mean none of our grandchildren will look on this excommunication as a good decision.

[SoonerCoug]

How did your kangaroo court go?

My former bishop is apparently inquiring about me even though I haven't attended church in about two years. I've had LDS coworkers / scientists who said that the former bishop was asking about me around the same time that Kate Kelly and John Dehlin were invited to their church courts. (I have no idea why my former bishop would have any jurisdiction. I have never even spoken with him casually. I moved out of his ward two years ago. I'm amazed he even remembers my name well enough to be asking people about me two years after the fact when I am not even in his ward.)

My current bishop works with me and has left me alone since I told him that I did not want home visits, did not have a recommend, and was not interested in attending church for the foreseeable future.

[Pheidippides]

By vindicated, I mean none of our grandchildren will look on this excommunication as a good decision.

heck, my wife and I are already feeling vindicated. we left over women's issues before it was cool. we are apostate hipsters.

[imanihonjin]

By vindicated, I mean none of our grandchildren will look on this excommunication as a good decision.

From what perspective? Again, agree with it or not, but the Church doesn't appear to want to go down the road of allowing the church to turn into some sort of democracy where the Kate Kellys of the world can lobby to effectuate the change they deem is necessary for the entire church. So it doesn't really matter what Kate Kelly was advocating, the point is she tried to lead from a non leadership position. This type of problem is not unique to the Church....go ahead and start railing against the chief medical officer at your hospital and when he asks you in private to stop, go ahead and continue down that path....I bet you dollars to donuts you would be fired in short order.

[ERCougar]

From what perspective? Again, agree with it or not, but the Church doesn't appear to want to go down the road of allowing the church to turn into some sort of democracy where the Kate Kellys of the world can lobby to effectuate the change they deem is necessary for the entire church. So it doesn't really matter what Kate Kelly was advocating, the point is she tried to lead from a non leadership position. This type of problem is not unique to the Church....go ahead and start railing against the chief medical officer at your hospital and when he asks you in private to stop, go ahead and continue down that path....I bet you dollars to donuts you would be fired in short order.

From the perspective of your grandchildren.
at least the ones who think the church should not be run like a business.

[Jeff Lebowski]

In this context a statement such as this is laughable on so many levels.

Hardy har har...

Don't be so disingenuous, my mean-spirited friend. You know I have always been against excommunication, including these two cases. My point is, Kate Kelly was asked to stop doing something by her SP and she refused. What has Dehlin done besides confess that he doesn't believe a few things (I admit I don't follow him much, so I could be missing something)? I am struggling to see what kind of argument they would make in his case.

By the way, I agree your general point. It would look bad.