Post tithing settlement thoughts...

[Mormon Red Death]

I will also add that whuile it would be nice to make the electronic donation process more convenient, doing so would only serve a realtively small segment of the church membership. In addition ot the many people who want to give to the bishop in person, you have a siaeable group who lack knowledge, hardware or local infrastructre that would allow them to donate in that manner. This dosent even begin to address the needs of overseas populations in third world countries.

No offense to you but the bolded above is bullshit. North America membership makes up about half of the world in membership and at least 70% of the tithe payers. Computers are abundant in North America. You could even use the computer at church! saying it would only serve a small segment is not even close to the truth.

[Pheidippides]

The church has money for cyber security. If their excuse for not updating this process is due to security concerns then they are lazier than I thought. BTW Pay pal transactions generally dont cost anything if you aren't buying anything.

In reality, they need to stop making excuses and do what should have done 10 years ago.

They were doing direct deposits years ago in Japan. I don't know if they still are - myboynoah?

[Donuthole]

I have no problems with the present online bill-pay system. It was about 15 minutes of hassle to get it set up, and it has been a non-issue since then.

[creekster]

No offense to you but the bolded above is bullshit. North America membership makes up about half of the world in membership and at least 70% of the tithe payers. Computers are abundant in North America. You could even use the computer at church! saying it would only serve a small segment is not even close to the truth.

My guess is you may not have been involved in the donation process first hand. There is a large chunck of my ward that would not donate in any fashion other than handing or mailing (yes a lot fo the old people still do this) their checks to the bishop directly. So, unless you have some sort of data to support your conclusion, I will beg to differ. If you do have data, how about showing it instead of calling my opinion "bullshit" without support?

[Pheidippides]

Finally, the time and effort to process contributions is, I believe, being exaggerated somewhat in this thread. It really isn't that onerous. The worst part in terms of time is tithing settlement, but that applies primarily to the bishop and one other MP holder (counselor/clerk/exec secty).

Said like somebody who has never had to do it. I don't know if you have or not, but when I was there this was a significant issue. And I don't know about you, but I'm no longer willing to sacrifice my bishop and clerk for two months so I can feel better eliminate more mormon guilt declare my righteous contributions do what exactly?

Tithing settlement falls in a large category of things I consider completely anachronistic and uninspired. Less harmful and conspicuous than the priesthood ban, but just as annoying.

[Moliere]

come on man... how much could the things I addressed above really cost? They couldnt be enought that its cost prohibitive seeings how the current way is so much more inefficient.

I look at my ward and if half of the ward paid their offerings online that would save a lot of time and supply money. We aren't talking about a process that would cost in the millions every year. You would have a start up cost then small maintenance cost.

Another way to look at it is the lack of privacy. What if someone donated then something got out about what they donated and what they make. Couldn't the church be at risk for a lawsuit? Don't they at least have a moral obligation to privacy?

I have no idea what it would cost, but I know it would cost more than it does now since you'd be adding one additional process without eliminating another.

You're thinking of this from your own convenience perspective. You have to think of this from the church's perspective. Are they missing out on donations not having an on-line process? Probably not. Would donations go down if people could donate on-line more anonymously? Maybe a little but probably not much.

The batch processing method currently used would still be necessary for check donations and since it's batch processing, cutting the donation in half wouldn't save that much time. Check donations are easy to count and less prone to fraud. Online donations wouldn't eliminate local cash donations, which are more of a pain to deal with in the church's batch model and more prone to fraud.

I'm not disagreeing from a convenience standpoint, but I'm just trying to point out that there are other factors besides whether or not the counselors and WFC get to spend and extra 30 minutes watching football with family.

I agree on privacy, but most people could probably guess to within 10% tolerance of what people in the ward make if they knew your profession, house size, type of car you drive, and other personal information that I'm sure you give out freely on a daily basis. Your salary is not as private as you might think. I'll admit that there were a couple surprises when I became WFC, but for the most part the donations fell in line with where I would have predicted.

[Mormon Red Death]

My guess is you may not have been involved in the donation process first hand. There is a large chunck of my ward that would not donate in any fashion other than handing or mailing (yes a lot fo the old people still do this) their checks to the bishop directly. So, unless you have some sort of data to support your conclusion, I will beg to differ. If you do have data, how about showing it instead of calling my opinion "bullshit" without support?

I've been a ward financial clerk twice. Does that count? People pay the way they do because THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN! Now bullshit was a little strong (I apologize) but for you to suggest that there would be only a small amount of people who would pay online is not logical.

So let me ask you do you have any support for your assumption that if an easy way to pay online was available it wouldn't get used? How many checks do I write a month? 1 because I can make every other payment I have online. Is it really so much to ask??

As for your argument about people "don't have the infrastructure" and such then why does the church create ancestry files and improvements to the internet site? According to your logic those only affect a small segment of members.

[Pheidippides]

I agree on privacy, but most people could probably guess to within 10% tolerance of what people in the ward make if they knew your profession, house size, type of car you drive, and other personal information that I'm sure you give out freely on a daily basis. Your salary is not as private as you might think. I'll admit that there were a couple surprises when I became WFC, but for the most part the donations fell in line with where I would have predicted.

As clerk (I didn't have a financial clerk, so I was a multi-tasker), I knew more than this. I could guess with reasonable certainty who paid net, who lied to the bishop, and who cheated on their taxes. And that was without even trying to think about it or paying specific attention to numbers.

If somebody can convince me that the current system is the revealed will of God, I'll shut up.

[Moliere]

Whether they do or do not, I suspect the church would have other issues that would serve as a barrier to using paypal. As you (I think it was you) noted, the controls in place in the donation process are actually quite effective and are audited quarterly. The church places a premium on control of its finances and I very much doubt it would be willing to farm that out to any significant degree to a third party.

I will also add that while it would be nice to make the electronic donation process more convenient, doing so would only serve a relatively small segment of the church membership. In addition to the many people who want to give to the bishop in person, you have a sizeable group who lack knowledge, hardware or local infrastructure that would allow them to donate in that manner. This doesn't even begin to address the needs of overseas populations in third world countries.

Finally, the time and effort to process contributions is, I believe, being exaggerated somewhat in this thread. It really isn't that onerous. The worst part in terms of time is tithing settlement, but that applies primarily to the bishop and one other MP holder (counselor/clerk/exec secty).

I know there is some diversity in approach out there, but this thread is another one that makes me wonder if I belong to the same church as some of you that are posting. For example I can not recall a single time in my life when a bishop has mentioned the amount of tithing I am paying. Not once, Not in tithing settlement. Not anywhere. I can also tell you that I pay once a year and there have been quite a few times when I have declared myself a full tithe payer and my donations for that year show $0 for tithing. Not once has a bishop ever asked me about that.

As with most things in the church (or anywhere else for that matter) the process lacks perfection, but I don't think it is that bad.

Nope, you go to the same church as me. This is my experience. I'd love for online donation capability and I bet it happens soon, but the church's process isn't as archaic as some people think it is.

I'd also add that local audits are performed semi-annually and not quarterly and they are, for all intents and purposes, not very effective.

[Mormon Red Death]

I have no idea what it would cost, but I know it would cost more than it does now since you'd be adding one additional process without eliminating another.

You're thinking of this from your own convenience perspective. You have to think of this from the church's perspective. Are they missing out on donations not having an on-line process? Probably not. Would donations go down if people could donate on-line more anonymously? Maybe a little but probably not much.

The batch processing method currently used would still be necessary for check donations and since it's batch processing, cutting the donation in half wouldn't save that much time. Check donations are easy to count and less prone to fraud. Online donations wouldn't eliminate local cash donations, which are more of a pain to deal with in the church's batch model and more prone to fraud.

I'm not disagreeing from a convenience standpoint, but I'm just trying to point out that there are other factors besides whether or not the counselors and WFC get to spend and extra 30 minutes watching football with family.

I agree on privacy, but most people could probably guess to within 10% tolerance of what people in the ward make if they knew your profession, house size, type of car you drive, and other personal information that I'm sure you give out freely on a daily basis. Your salary is not as private as you might think. I'll admit that there were a couple surprises when I became WFC, but for the most part the donations fell in line with where I would have predicted.

The church does plenty of things for convenience factors. They update location finder for wards on lds.org. They produce softwars and PAFs for genealogy. They put the manuals online.

[Moliere]

If somebody can convince me that the current system is the revealed will of God, I'll shut up.

Do you believe TSM is a prophet? Does he endorse the current process?







Sorry, couldn't help but pull a CB type transitive property divine endorsement

[wuapinmon]

While I never told anyone ever how much someone donated other than the person inputting the info into FIS, I was often SHOCKED not about tithing amounts, but at the generosity of people when they paid their fast offerings. Some of the amounts were just astronomically high, and they were made every month.

[Pheidippides]

Do you believe TSM is a prophet? Does he endorse the current process?







Sorry, couldn't help but pull a CB type transitive property divine endorsement

Hey, I know where you live, buddy! What's more, I'm close enough to do something about it!:nana:

BTW, the response would be something along the lines of "please define prophet for me" and then I'd lead our hypothetical CBer down a primrose path to destruction

[creekster]

I've been a ward financial clerk twice. Does that count? People pay the way they do because THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN! Now bullshit was a little strong (I apologize) but for you to suggest that there would be only a small amount of people who would pay on line is not logical.

So let me ask you do you have any support for your assumption that if an easy way to pay on line was available it wouldn't get used? How many checks do I write a month? 1 because I can make every other payment I have on line. Is it really so much to ask??

As for your argument about people don't have the infrastructure and such then why does the church great ancestry files and improvements to the internet site? According to your logic those only affect a small segment of members.

So we both have opinions. I have served in callings where I have been intimately involved in the donation process for a number of years in my life. So have you. We see it differently. I know in our ward we had a clerk that encouraged people to donate electronically and it got almost zero traction (two people signed up for it). Maybe my ward is full of Luddites; it is possible.

If the church offered a system like you describe, I am sure it would get used at a much higher level than the current on-line bill pay system. But I think your assertion that the lack of a system is a failure is misguided.

I will also say this, I suspect, and I have no actual support for this other than my considered opinion, that the church doesn't encourage on line payments because they want people to feel connected to the donation process in a visceral way. They want there to be some contact between donee and donor. Handing the envelope to the bishop makes a personal connection paying on line doesn't allow, and it is a teaching moment for children. It also provides non-verbal encouragement to other members. All of that would be lost if on-line payment was the order of the day.

I actually think the ancestry files is an interesting question. I think it does affect a relatively small percentage, and many of the people in our area go to the local family history center to use the system. Moreover, I have never claimed the church COULDN'T do it, but just that the fact that they don't, while inconvenient to some, such as yourself, isn't that big of a deal to most members.

[creekster]

Nope, you go to the same church as me. This is my experience. I'd love for online donation capability and I bet it happens soon, but the church's process isn't as archaic as some people think it is.

I'd also add that local audits are performed semi-annually and not quarterly and they are, for all intents and purposes, not very effective.

Yes, thats right, semi annually. My bad. As with most audits, I have found their effectiveness depends a great deal on the auditor.