Post tithing settlement thoughts...

[Mormon Red Death]

So we both have opinions. I have served in callings where I have been intimately involved in the donation process for a number of years in my life. So have you. We see it differently. I know in our ward we had a clerk that encouraged people to donate electronically and it got almost zero traction (two people signed up for it). Maybe my ward is full of Luddites; it is possible.

If the church offered a system like you describe, I am sure it would get used at a much higher level than the current on-line bill pay system. But I think your assertion that the lack of a system is a failure is misguided.

I will also say this, I suspect, and I have no actual support for this other than my considered opinion, that the church doesn't encourage on line payments because they want people to feel connected to the donation process in a visceral way. They want there to be some contact between donee and donor. Handing the envelope to the bishop makes a personal connection paying on line doesn't allow, and it is a teaching moment for children. It also provides non-verbal encouragement to other members.[/B] All of that would be lost if on-line payment was the order of the day.

So we can't pay online because the church wants non payers to see those that do?

[mUUser]

I agree on privacy, but most people could probably guess to within 10% tolerance of what people in the ward make if they knew your profession, house size, type of car you drive, and other personal information that I'm sure you give out freely on a daily basis. Your salary is not as private as you might think. I'll admit that there were a couple surprises when I became WFC, but for the most part the donations fell in line with where I would have predicted.

How much debt load do you figure into your guesses or is it done on a person by person basis based on age, personality and other factors?

[Mormon Red Death]

So we both have opinions. I have served in callings where I have been intimately involved in the donation process for a number of years in my life. So have you. We see it differently. I know in our ward we had a clerk that encouraged people to donate electronically and it got almost zero traction (two people signed up for it). Maybe my ward is full of Luddites; it is possible.

If the church offered a system like you describe, I am sure it would get used at a much higher level than the current on-line bill pay system. But I think your assertion that the lack of a system is a failure is misguided.

I will also say this, I suspect, and I have no actual support for this other than my considered opinion, that the church doesn't encourage on line payments because they want people to feel connected to the donation process in a visceral way. They want there to be some contact between donee and donor. Handing the envelope to the bishop makes a personal connection paying on line doesn't allow, and it is a teaching moment for children. It also provides non-verbal encouragement to other members. All of that would be lost if on-line payment was the order of the day.

I actually think the ancestry files is an interesting question. I think it does affect a relatively small percentage, and many of the people in our area go to the local family history center to use the system. Moreover, I have never claimed the church COULDN'T do it, but just that the fact that they don't, while inconvenient to some, such as yourself, isn't that big of a deal to most members.

I think your visceral argument has some legs but it still doesnt compute. If you give to the local theatre or boys and girls club do you have to do it by check to make it worth it to you? I don't think so.

Honestly I think the real culprit is the Old guys running stuff. They are making arguments like "I've always paid by check so can everyone else." They probably havent even weighed the amount of man hours they would save by changing offerings and tithing settlement processes.

[mUUser]

The church does plenty of things for convenience factors. They update location finder for wards on lds.org. They produce softwars and PAFs for genealogy. They put the manuals online.

I'm with you on this one. Anything, within reason, that the church can do to reduce the hassle of being a member should be done....and this one seems reasonable to me.

[Sullyute]

I will also say this, I suspect, and I have no actual support for this other than my considered opinion, that the church doesn't encourage on line payments because they want people to feel connected to the donation process in a visceral way. They want there to be some contact between donee and donor. Handing the envelope to the bishop makes a personal connection paying on line doesn't allow, and it is a teaching moment for children. It also provides non-verbal encouragement to other members. All of that would be lost if on-line payment was the order of the day.

Please help me understand this sentance better. Are you saying that people donate to be seen of men?

[wuapinmon]

Please help me understand this sentance better. Are you saying that people donate to be seen of men?

No, he's saying that seeing others donate can motivate you to try to live up to the standard.

[Surfah]

I think we should just send around a collection basket.

[creekster]

No, he's saying that seeing others donate can motivate you to try to live up to the standard.

Yes; that is stated more accurately.

The old guy syndrome MRD refers to is likely part of it. But I really think there would be very little reduction in man hours even if half or more of the members donated on-line.

[Mormon Red Death]

Yes; that is stated more accurately.

The old guy syndrome MRD refers to is likely part of it. But I really think there would be very little reduction in man hours even if half or more of the members donated on-line.

Really? Lets say an average ward has 100 tithe payers/families and spends one hour 50 weeks a year putting in tithing slips into MLS. Lets also say that those 100 people need 15 minutes once a year to meet with bishop and do tithing settlement.

That means you have 100 man hours (WFC and Counselor every week) and 25Bishop hours. 125 total. Lets also say for quick math there are 10,000 wards in North America. That is .68 million man hours saved. or 300.5 Full time equivalent employees. Assuming it takes half as long to put in checks as there are now half of supply.

Wouldn't a bishop be happy to NOT have to come in on Saturdays in December? Couldn't they arrange the tithing and offerings so they get put in only twice or even once a month? How about not having to print off all the tithing slips 3 times (once for before tithing settlement... once for during and one for taxes.

[creekster]

Really? Lets say an average ward has 100 tithe payers/families and spends one hour 50 weeks a year putting in tithing slips into MLS. Lets also say that those 100 people need 15 minutes once a year to meet with bishop and do tithing settlement.

That means you have 100 man hours (WFC and Counselor every week) and 25Bishop hours. 125 total. Lets also say for quick math there are 10,000 wards in North America. That is .68 million man hours saved. or 300.5 Full time equivalent employees.

Wouldn't a bishop be happy to NOT have to come in on Saturdays in December? Couldn't they arrange the tithing and offerings so they get put in only twice or even once a month? How about not having to print off all the tithing slips 3 times (once for before tithing settlement... once for during and one for taxes.

You are assuming a linear realtionship between number of tithing donations and clerk/counselor time. Certqin portions o the transaction are pretty much fixed. If you have, say, 50 donations a week and you reduce it by half you will not reduce the time required by half. Many of the tasks required will only be affected marginally by the reduction. Instead of the hypothetical hour, you are going to reduce it by maybe 15 minutes, not by half. Moreover, remeber that many times while tithing is being counted the bishop is meeting with ward members. If he is meeting with single women someone is supposed ot be in the clerk's office while that meeting takes place., IN our ward the bishop tries to set those appoionmtents for the time tithing is being coutned.

Look, on-line donations would be more convenient for you and probably many others,. But it may not be as simple as you are trying to make it sound.

[Mormon Red Death]

You are assuming a linear realtionship between number of tithing donations and clerk/counselor time. Certqin portions o the transaction are pretty much fixed. If you have, say, 50 donations a week and you reduce it by half you will not reduce the time required by half. Many of the tasks required will only be affected marginally by the reduction. Instead of the hypothetical hour, you are going to reduce it by maybe 15 minutes, not by half. Moreover, remeber that many times while tithing is being counted the bishop is meeting with ward members. If he is meeting with single women someone is supposed ot be in the clerk's office while that meeting takes place., IN our ward the bishop tries to set those appoionmtents for the time tithing is being coutned.

Look, on-line donations would be more convenient for you and probably many others,. But it may not be as simple as you are trying to make it sound.

Yes it would. The time it take is linear to how many checks you have to process. The process is as follows:

1.Counselor opens up envelopes. places white sheets in pile.

2. WFC inputs data in MLS

3. Counselor counts checks and cash for double check.

4. After reports tie (MLS to Counselor check and Cash count) transmit to Salt Lake. The amount of time it takes to transmit is directly related to the amount of transactions completed.

5 put everything in bag and drive to bank for drop off.

If you have less checks it takes less time. As for the bishop he can schedule single women during church to accomodate.

[DrumNFeather]

Yes it would. The time it take is linear to how many checks you have to process. The process is as follows:

1.Counselor opens up envelopes. places white sheets in pile.

2. WFC inputs data in MLS

3. Counselor counts checks and cash for double check.

4. After reports tie (MLS to Counselor check and Cash count) transmit to Salt Lake. The amount of time it takes to transmit is directly related to the amount of transactions completed.
5 put everything in bag and drive to bank for drop off.

If you have less checks it takes less time. As for the bishop he can schedule single women during church to accomodate.

Not long ago when I was doing this, we still had dial up in our building...talk about taking forever.

[creekster]

Yes it would. The time it take is linear to how many checks you have to process. The process is as follows:

1.Counselor opens up envelopes. places white sheets in pile.

2. WFC inputs data in MLS

3. Counselor counts checks and cash for double check.

4. After reports tie (MLS to Counselor check and Cash count) transmit to Salt Lake. The amount of time it takes to transmit is directly related to the amount of transactions completed.

5 put everything in bag and drive to bank for drop off.

If you have less checks it takes less time. As for the bishop he can schedule single women during church to accomodate.

4 and 5 are not linerly realted to the number of checks. 5 not at all. 1, 2 and three are more closely realted, but not linearly. set up time and process time are not affected. IOW, having gotten out the bowl or whatever is used, and the letter opener, etc., the difreence betwee 50 and 25 checks is not 50% of total time.

Look, we are not going to agree. I understand your position, and I get that it would be alot more convenient for you. Great. But to suggest the church is ruining Sunday for counselors or clerks or that it is forcing behaviors on the majority of members just isnt correct, IMO.

btw, the single women should probabyl be in church, but that is a nice idea.

[TripletDaddy]

i think you guys have spent more aggregate time debating this issue than it would take to write a tithing check and hand it to the Bishop.

[creekster]

i think you guys have spent more aggregate time debating this issue than it would take to write a tithing check and hand it to the Bishop.

I refuse to discuss thi swith someone who has just been waiting for permission to call me stupid.