Post tithing settlement thoughts...

[Mormon Red Death]

My letter to Salt Lake: Donations@ldschurch.org

To Whom it may concern:

The process for making tithing donations is archaic. Filling out a paper slip and writing a check only to have the financial clerk and one of the Bishopric counselors stay after for an hour every Sunday and input them into MLS is incredibly inefficient.

Not only is it inefficient it’s ripe for errors and fraud. Additionally, it wastes a lot of man hours. Furthermore, it leaves open at least three people (Bishop, Counselor & Ward Financial Clerk) to see and infer how much money any family in the ward makes. Quite frankly I don’t want any other person in the ward to know how much I make. To whoever is in charge of this process please tell them they are derelict in their duties. This should have been fixed 10 years ago.

Now this is the point where you probably say “we do have an online pay!” I
am attaching the confusing document you have. There are a several problems with your document.

A) It’s a word file when it should be just a form you fill out on lds.org.

B) This is just to set up your account file. Where do I put my bank information?

C) There are not instructions for the whole process.

D) If you pay fast offerings or ward missionary funds they don’t go to your home ward.

Whoever is in charge with this processed should be ashamed. Any other organization that has an ounce of credibility will take a payment online. For example with the United Way all one has to do is go to their website and click on the “Give to United Way” button. Every other payment I make is electronic. It’s incredibly frustrating to keep seeing the church act so lazy and behind the times on this front.

SUGGESTION

1) There should be a part of the member login portion of LDS.org where one can pay their tithing slip. Take the tithing slip and make a form that looks exactly like that slip. http://0.tqn.com/d/lds/1/0/o/O/1/tithing_slip.jpg

2) Since you already have the member ID (due to them logging in) you should be able to distribute Fast offerings and Ward Mission Funds directly to the home ward as the member ID already on LDS.org tells you which is your home ward.

3) If you are hesitant to have people put in bank/credit cards give them an opportunity to put in Bank Routing number and account number. You could also let people make donations via PayPal. EBAY has to have 100 times the transactions that the LDS church has and they do everything by pay pal.

4) Make the process so that those that choose can have a recurring payment. IE I want to set the payment up once then not worry about it until something changes (salary raise etc..).

5) Have a button that the member logging in can click on to declare their tithing status so we don’t have to waste time going to church only to say “Yes” then drive home.

6) Have a button where a member can see all of their donations for the year to date. On January 1st of the next year have the members tax statement automatically available to print out at the donation givers’ discretion.

In conclusion, I can’t say enough of how foolish the current process is. The good news is that this is not a tough fix.
Regards,

[Moliere]

My letter to Salt Lake: Donations@ldschurch.org

You didn't really send that

[mUUser]

I have heard that they are going to start sending that info to the local units.

Well, that would create a problem in my mind. Don't know where I'd turn from there. Certainly there's a solution to this out there somewhere.

[Mormon Red Death]

You didn't really send that

Yes I did. I also put my name, number, ward and stake at the bottom.

[Sullyute]

My letter to Salt Lake: Donations@ldschurch.org

[Moliere]

Yes I did. I also put my name, number, ward and stake at the bottom.

Interesting, if they respond you'll have to post the response....although I bet this will follow normal channels and just be redirected back to your stake president who has no power to do anything about any of this.

My impression is the church knows it should implement a direct donation system, but I bet from a money standpoint it really isn't cost-effective. Their current process is almost free since clerks and bishops aren't paid, and I'd argue the current process is likely less prone to fraud then an online system.

[SCcoug]

Ha, I opened the thread to the last post and saw this quoted:

My letter to Salt Lake: Donations@ldschurch.org

I was hoping it was MRD's declaration of a full tithe to donations@ldschurch.org. You're suggestions were good too.

[Mormon Red Death]

Interesting, if they respond you'll have to post the response....although I bet this will follow normal channels and just be redirected back to your stake president who has no power to do anything about any of this.

My impression is the church knows it should implement a direct donation system, but I bet from a money standpoint it really isn't cost-effective. Their current process is almost free since clerks and bishops aren't paid, and I'd argue the current process is likely less prone to fraud then an online system.

I would bet the a direct donation would would be more cost effective. Yes there is no salary for financial clerks but the paper, ink and printers when all added together could be worth it.

Additionally, I would argue that the recent trend of wanting the bishops and others to have more time with their families would be greatly impacted by the suggestion I made.

[Moliere]

I would bet the a direct donation would would be more cost effective. Yes there is no salary for financial clerks but the paper, ink and printers when all added together could be worth it.

Additionally, I would argue that the recent trend of wanting the bishops and others to have more time with their families would be greatly impacted by the suggestion I made.

I agree on the impact on time to those involved.

The problem with online donations would be the transaction costs. I'm not sure what the typical cost is to do a transaction over paypal, but if it's the typical 2-3% charged by credit cards then that's a signfiicant amount of money.

Plus, do you really want the LDS church to have your bank information in electronic format? I'd probably put the church's IT department very low on a list of companies that I'd trust with safeguarding that information from hackers or anyone else trying to get that information, which would be valuable information to have.

The church's current controls over donations are actually pretty good. They are sound control practices when followed. The biggest problem is that wards call inexperienced people to handle donations and the training videos are only process oriented. They should come out with some more control-oriented videos to help people understand the controls and why they are important. They should also stop calling engineers are financial clerks

[Mormon Red Death]

I agree on the impact on time to those involved.

The problem with online donations would be the transaction costs. I'm not sure what the typical cost is to do a transaction over paypal, but if it's the typical 2-3% charged by credit cards then that's a signfiicant amount of money.

Plus, do you really want the LDS church to have your bank information in electronic format? I'd probably put the church's IT department very low on a list of companies that I'd trust with safeguarding that information from hackers or anyone else trying to get that information, which would be valuable information to have.

The church's current controls over donations are actually pretty good. They are sound control practices when followed. The biggest problem is that wards call inexperienced people to handle donations and the training videos are only process oriented. They should come out with some more control-oriented videos to help people understand the controls and why they are important. They should also stop calling engineers are financial clerks

The church has money for cyber security. If their excuse for not updating this process is due to security concerns then they are lazier than I thought. BTW Pay pal transactions generally dont cost anything if you aren't buying anything.

In reality, they need to stop making excuses and do what should have done 10 years ago.

[Moliere]

The church has money for cyber security. If their excuse for not updating this process is due to security concerns then they are lazier than I thought. BTW Pay pal transactions generally dont cost anything if you aren't buying anything.

How does paypal make money?

Also, by adding online donations they aren't eliminating the old process. All they've done is add another process that costs money to run. Your cost/benefit might (I said might!) work if they were eliminating the old "hand a check to the bishop" process but it isn't. Both process would exist and continue to exist until the check writing generation dies off.*

*I was at Walmart two months ago and some lady paid with an actual hand-written check. I couldn't believe my eyes.

[Mormon Red Death]

How does paypal make money?

Also, by adding online donations they aren't eliminating the old process. All they've done is add another process that costs money to run. Your cost/benefit might (I said might!) work if they were eliminating the old "hand a check to the bishop" process but it isn't. Both process would exist and continue to exist until the check writing generation dies off.*

*I was at Walmart two months ago and some lady paid with an actual hand-written check. I couldn't believe my eyes.

If you purchase something they take a percentage. With donations or giving money personally they don't.

[Moliere]

If you purchase something they take a percentage. With donations or giving money personally they don't.

Yeah, I'm not sure they are going to allow an entity that supposedly brings in billions each year to get to process those donations all for free. Maybe I'm up in the night or maybe the owner of Paypal is a die-hard church member, but methinks they wouldn't just give us a pass.

[Mormon Red Death]

How does paypal make money?

Also, by adding online donations they aren't eliminating the old process. All they've done is add another process that costs money to run. Your cost/benefit might (I said might!) work if they were eliminating the old "hand a check to the bishop" process but it isn't. Both process would exist and continue to exist until the check writing generation dies off.*

*I was at Walmart two months ago and some lady paid with an actual hand-written check. I couldn't believe my eyes.

come on man... how much could the things I addressed above really cost? They couldnt be enought that its cost prohibitive seeings how the current way is so much more inefficient.

I look at my ward and if half of the ward paid their offerings online that would save a lot of time and supply money. We aren't talking about a process that would cost in the millions every year. You would have a start up cost then small maintenance cost.

Another way to look at it is the lack of privacy. What if someone donated then something got out about what they donated and what they make. Couldn't the church be at risk for a lawsuit? Don't they at least have a moral obligation to privacy?

[creekster]

Yeah, I'm not sure they are going to allow an entity that supposedly brings in billions each year to get to process those donations all for free. Maybe I'm up in the night or maybe the owner of Paypal is a die-hard church member, but methinks they wouldn't just give us a pass.

Whether they do or do not, I suspect the church would have other issues that would serve as a barrier to using paypal. As you (I think it was you) noted, the controls in place in the donation process are actually quite effective and are audited quarterly. The church places a premium on control of its finances and I very much doubt it would be willing to farm that out to any significant degree to a third party.

I will also add that while it would be nice to make the electronic donation process more convenient, doing so would only serve a relatively small segment of the church membership. In addition to the many people who want to give to the bishop in person, you have a sizeable group who lack knowledge, hardware or local infrastructure that would allow them to donate in that manner. This doesn't even begin to address the needs of overseas populations in third world countries.

Finally, the time and effort to process contributions is, I believe, being exaggerated somewhat in this thread. It really isn't that onerous. The worst part in terms of time is tithing settlement, but that applies primarily to the bishop and one other MP holder (counselor/clerk/exec secty).

I know there is some diversity in approach out there, but this thread is another one that makes me wonder if I belong to the same church as some of you that are posting. For example I can not recall a single time in my life when a bishop has mentioned the amount of tithing I am paying. Not once, Not in tithing settlement. Not anywhere. I can also tell you that I pay once a year and there have been quite a few times when I have declared myself a full tithe payer and my donations for that year show $0 for tithing. Not once has a bishop ever asked me about that.

As with most things in the church (or anywhere else for that matter) the process lacks perfection, but I don't think it is that bad.