Post tithing settlement thoughts...

[UtahDan]

Don't you think that cuts both ways though? I mean, wouldn't there have to be a mutual understanding of listening without judgement on both ends? If it is a one-way street of respect of beliefs, then I'm not sure that it would unfold all that well.

I wouldn't think that a person would come into their bishop's office to let him have it if that is what you mean. I think if someone were interested in talking about their doubts or concerns with a leader that would be pretty good evidence that they care and are coming from a respectful place.

I would think that most members know how important the beliefs of other members are to them and would go out of their way not to disrespect them even if they may not agree with them. I think the fear of having a lot of very negative assumptions be made about your based on your ideas of abstract theology is what would keep people from talking about their doubts in the first place.

[pellegrino]

I certainly like the idea that there would be someone who would listen without judgment. If at the end of all that they would say "don't worry Brother Pelligrino, you don't have to believe any particular thing to enjoy our fellowship" and then could shepherd you back into a congregation where that was really true that would be a major win.

Technically, there is only one judge in the ward, the bishop. He would be the one to determine what level of fellowship you would enjoy, if there are indeed different levels. I guess there could be someone who is worthy to take the sacrament but not to go to the temple? Maybe I'm wrong on that one, but I would imagine that someone living the basic principles of the gospel would be allowed at least partial fellowship in the church (sacrament privileges), regardless of their stance on prop. 8, women receiving the priesthood, or their tithing status. I'm not sure about the WoW, but in my mind even partial observers of the WoW deserve to take the sacrament.

I don't know that we're on the same page here though. I'm envisioning a place where ideas can be shared freely and if someone expresses doubts or questions a certain doctrine, then it can be discussed freely, without fear of being shunned by fellow members. As far as disciplinary action goes, I would hope that expressing doubt would be viewed as what it is, an expression of doubt, or a lack of faith, which do not merit any discipline or sanctions.

Now, there are different levels of unbelief and I don't think that there is a place in an official church meeting for someone whose intent is to persuade members that certain foundational tenets are not what the church supposes them to be (JS was a fraud, BOM is too, etc.). I view this as a space where believers can find support and comfort so that all can be understood. I do not view it as a place where people with pet projects can use it as a means to attract more to their cause.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Don't you think that cuts both ways though? I mean, wouldn't there have to be a mutual understanding of listening without judgement on both ends? If it is a one-way street of respect of beliefs, then I'm not sure that it would unfold all that well.

I don't think that anyone needs to put up with someone who is being antagonistic, and not everyone who has questions, doubts, or do not believe belittle the beliefs of those are steadfast in their beliefs. This is something that my wife struggled with in the beginning. She thought that my statement that I did not believe in the church was akin to me saying that I was now going to stock our refrigerator with beer, swear in front of the kids, picket temple square at conference, etc. There is a huge difference between being a nonbeliever and being antimormon, and I think that a good chunk of church membership does not distiguish between the two.

There is too much "If you are not with us, you are against us" attitude prevalent in the dogma of the church. This attitude lead to the confrontational situations that many who wish to drift away quietly feel when dealing with family and friends.

When I had serious doubts and questions, I really felt that the church leadership slammed a door in my face or tried to steamroll me any time I wanted to discuss these things with them. They openly stated(to my wife) that I was a threat to my family, and they would support her if she wanted to end our marriage. That led to a period of bitterness and nastiness that I held towards the church in general that took a long time to subside.

Having a safe harbor for discussion is a much better solution than what is in existence at the current time.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Having a safe harbor for discussion is a much better solution than what is in existence at the current time.

I don't know that we're on the same page here though. I'm envisioning a place where ideas can be shared freely and if someone expresses doubts or questions a certain doctrine, then it can be discussed freely, without fear of being shunned by fellow members. As far as disciplinary action goes, I would hope that expressing doubt would be viewed as what it is, an expression of doubt, or a lack of faith, which do not merit any discipline or sanctions.

.

You said this much better than I(which doesn't come to much surprise)

[UtahDan]

I do not view it as a place where people with pet projects can use it as a means to attract more to their cause.

I can't imagine why anyone would entered into a dialog with a leader for the purpose of trying to persuade him of a heretical or apostate view. That seems like a colossal waste of time.

I guess I can see where a person who has no other outlet could benefit from a leader or someone else saying to them "you are not alone in your concerns, here is the answer that others have found satisfying or here is how others have coped with there not being a good answer to your concern."

Here is where I think the practical problems come in. I think this site in particular has some of the best, most sincere and most creative thoughts I have seen anywhere on how to cope with the dissonance that people experience. The problem is that many of these thoughts, tricks, tips etc just don't align well with what has been said in an official capacity. Most of it is along the lines of "here is why you can feel okay about thinking or doing something that obviously doesn't line up with orthodoxy." But can a Bishop or some other church official be the source of that sort of thing? I think it is great for your dad to put his arm around you and say "son, I've never much cared for or followed this teaching and you shouldn't worry too much about it either." But can a Bishop do that? I am making sense here?

[pellegrino]

I can't imagine why anyone would entered into a dialog with a leader for the purpose of trying to persuade him of a heretical or apostate view. That seems like a colossal waste of time.

I guess I can see where a person who has no other outlet could benefit from a leader or someone else saying to them "you are not alone in your concerns, here is the answer that others have found satisfying or here is how others have coped with there not being a good answer to your concern."

Here is where I think the practical problems come in. I think this site in particular has some of the best, most sincere and most creative thoughts I have seen anywhere on how to cope with the dissonance that people experience. The problem is that many of these thoughts, tricks, tips etc just don't align well with what has been said in an official capacity. Most of it is along the lines of "here is why you can feel okay about thinking or doing something that obviously doesn't line up with orthodoxy." But can a Bishop or some other church official be the source of that sort of thing? I think it is great for your dad to put his arm around you and say "son, I've never much cared for or followed this teaching and you shouldn't worry too much about it either." But can a Bishop do that? I am making sense here?

I don't see the bishop as having a strong presence in this space. I see it as a quorum, where the members of the quorum are providing the support and comfort. I know of a few bishops who have been able to provide comfort to those with doubts in personal settings, but these are all second hand. I haven't approached a bishop, nor do I intend to.

I guess we'll have to ask the bishops of the board where they stand on this. How do they deal with disaffection?

[Portland Ute]

[QUOTE=Jarid in Cedar;496283]
When I had serious doubts and questions, I really felt that the church leadership slammed a door in my face or tried to steamroll me any time I wanted to discuss these things with them. They openly stated(to my wife) that I was a threat to my family, and they would support her if she wanted to end our marriage. That led to a period of bitterness and nastiness that I held towards the church in general that took a long time to subside.

QUOTE]


You are a better man than I. I don't think I would ever get past those types of "suggestions" to my family/wife.

In fact, I'd probably be inclined to move from non-believer to anti because of such actions. That clearly becomes very "cult-like" behavior, IMO.

I'm glad I haven't experienced such things. I don't think I'd handle them as well as you have.

I've openly discussed by doubts, questions and concerns to my wife. Much to my relief, she has shared with me that she often agrees with me or has similar concerns. The wife of one of the bisopric shares very similar struggles regarding dogma, history and doctrine.

However, we continue attending. We think it is a good base for our kids. I think the Church gives people structure... a set of rules. Once people become adults, they can then decide if there are any exceptions to the rules and/or if all the rules apply to all people.

I'm probably getting sidetracked, but the bottom line is that right now, I have felt comfortable sharing my "weak testimony" in the past few months to a number of people, both family, friens and ward members and have not seemed overly concerned.

Other than my mother. After a long discussion with my dad and wife and family, my mother asked me in a rather sad voice, "You really struggle, don't you?" And then she rubbed my back quickly and gave me a pat. She wasn't mean, I could just tell it was tough on her knowing that I don't buy in 100% to 100% of things.

For the record, it's not as if I share things in a very matter of fact "I don't believe!" It's more of a "I don't know for sure...." or a probing question.

This all being said, I have no doubt that if I said flat out to everyone that "I do not believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," that there would be some pretty severe social reaction to me.

I'm glad I'm not at that point.

[mUUser]

This all being said, I have no doubt that if I said flat out to everyone that "I do not believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," that there would be some pretty severe social reaction to me.

I cannot come up with a single relationship outside my wife and kids that I'd lose much sleep over, if the relationship was lost because i left the church (disclosure: parents dont attend church).

This may be because I'm at an age where I dont care very much, or I dont have many close relationships other than wife and kids. In fact, as I think about it, I only have a couple of valued friendships that were built primarily through church attendance over 45 years. Probably more close friendships that have little or nothing to do with the church.

[wuapinmon]

The EQP asked me to announce about tithing settlement on Sunday. My response was "It's none of the bishop's damned business how much I pay in tithing."

He made the announcement to the quorum.

[creekster]

The EQP asked me to announce about tithing settlement on Sunday. My response was "It's none of the bishop's damned business how much I pay in tithing."

He made the announcement to the quorum.

You sure showed him!

[TripletDaddy]

Our family had T-Sett on Saturday morning. At around 7:30AM

This year seemed like the first year that they didn't even give us any docs before we walked in. I asked the Bish and he said he isnt doing that anymore. All he needs is a Yes or No.

I also noticed that he had a flat screen TV installed on his wall and I noticed a cable leading into it from the wall outlet.

I like my Bish.

[Surfah]

We had tithing settlement last week. As usual it was short and pleasant. I felt impressed to talk about tithing to my quorum before giving my lesson Sunday, so I did. I have a great testimony of tithing.

[Art Vandelay]

I also noticed that he had a flat screen TV installed on his wall and I noticed a cable leading into it from the wall outlet.

I like my Bish.

What the ...? I know the average contributor in your ward likely pays more tithing than my ward combined, but still. Bishops in Utah get the NFL package?!?

[DrumNFeather]

We had tithing settlement last week. As usual it was short and pleasant. I felt impressed to talk about tithing to my quorum before giving my lesson Sunday, so I did. I have a great testimony of tithing.

We're going tonight. Last year my then 2 and a half year old asked the bishop for a candy cane. He said she could have one if she told him who her favorite prophet was. She thought for a minute and said..."Daddy!"

[NorthwestUteFan]

Our family had T-Sett on Saturday morning. At around 7:30AM

If they are scheduling that early in the morning, ON A SATURDAY, why not just conduct whole tithing settlement via text message?

(FTR, I understand the need for the bishop to have personal face time with all the ward members.)