I learned in church today

[Northwestcoug]

Well sure. You can find LDS sources arguing for a literal flood too. More and more members seem to be just fine with the allegory route.

And I'm totally OK with that. Whatever works. I just think it's interesting that the 'yardstick' used in gauging the historicity of scripture is so different for many people. I had never considered Job to be anything other than historical, though I had problems with a literal flood and other God-sanctioned killing. God allows a dumb Satan to kill Job's family and cause him misery, so I'm not sure why that's much different than doing him doing his work alone. I'm not sure why it registered differently for me. It's kind of funny now that I think of it.

If the general membership is moving towards the allegorical side of the spectrum, I think that's a positive thing. But it is frustrating to me that the church would much rather have a literal-believing membership than one that picks and chooses. If more and more people want to view scripture in a non-literal framework, why not give them an official sanction?

[Jeff Lebowski]

And I'm totally OK with that. Whatever works. I just think it's interesting that the 'yardstick' used in gauging the historicity of scripture is so different for many people. I had never considered Job to be anything other than historical, though I had problems with a literal flood and other God-sanctioned killing. God allows a dumb Satan to kill Job's family and cause him misery, so I'm not sure why that's much different than doing him doing his work alone. I'm not sure why it registered differently for me. It's kind of funny now that I think of it.

If the general membership is moving towards the allegorical side of the spectrum, I think that's a positive thing. But it is frustrating to me that the church would much rather have a literal-believing membership than one that picks and chooses. If more and more people want to view scripture in a non-literal framework, why not give them an official sanction?

I am not sure if it is fair to paint it in black and white terms like that. I am sure the church leadership covers a spectrum of viewpoints and it would depend who you are listening to. I am seeing an increasing number of faithful LDS scholars argue for a less literal approach to things. They get some blowback from the usual suspects, but overall it is well received. And the recent LDS essay on the BOA would seem to be evidence of a shift. Baby steps.

[Northwestcoug]

I am not sure if it is fair to paint it in black and white terms like that. I am sure the church leadership covers a spectrum of viewpoints and it would depend who you are listening to. I am seeing an increasing number of faithful LDS scholars argue for a less literal approach to things. They get some blowback from the usual suspects, but overall it is well received. And the recent LDS essay on the BOA would seem to be evidence of a shift. Baby steps.

I agree there's movement. Baby steps seems to be a good term. But I would like to see more evidence of diversity of thought in the official study material before I believe the leadership is sanctioning those less orthodox scholars. The BOA article was a mess IMO.

[HBCoug]

Some have questioned whether God converses with the devil and his spirit-followers as described here. These verses may be a poetic way of setting the stage for what follows in Job’s life—his afflictions, temptations, loss of worldly goods—rather than a reporting of an actual conversation. The Lord does not bargain with Satan or agree to his evil deeds. However, Satan is permitted by the Lord to afflict and torment man until Lucifer’s allotted time on earth is done. Thus, Job’s trials would be consistent with the concept that Satan was allowed by God to bring the afflictions upon Job, not because of a bargain God made with Satan, but because it fit God’s purposes for Job.

So kick ass! HF does not negotiate with terrorists. :rockon2:

[Eddie]

I am not sure if it is fair to paint it in black and white terms like that. I am sure the church leadership covers a spectrum of viewpoints and it would depend who you are listening to. I am seeing an increasing number of faithful LDS scholars argue for a less literal approach to things. They get some blowback from the usual suspects, but overall it is well received. And the recent LDS essay on the BOA would seem to be evidence of a shift. Baby steps.

Ha!

In the back of my mind I'm hearing the conversation...

"And how are these teachings received?"

"Very well!"

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ha!

In the back of my mind I'm hearing the conversation...

"And how are these teachings received?"

"Very well!"

Haha.

[Jacob]

Of course, if you're willing to accept Job as an allegory it becomes exceedingly difficult to hold on to a literal belief of most of the OT. And for most of scripture...

I think this is correct. Picking and choosing what is not literal , even when using reason, is a slippery slope to apostasy. NTTAWWT

[Jacob]

I am not sure if it is fair to paint it in black and white terms like that. I am sure the church leadership covers a spectrum of viewpoints and it would depend who you are listening to. I am seeing an increasing number of faithful LDS scholars argue for a less literal approach to things. They get some blowback from the usual suspects, but overall it is well received. And the recent LDS essay on the BOA would seem to be evidence of a shift. Baby steps.

It is not sanctioned by the lesson materials, by gospel doctrine teachers everywhere, and certainly not by my family. At least in my experience.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It is not sanctioned by the lesson materials, by gospel doctrine teachers everywhere, and certainly not by my family. At least in my experience.

Dang, you get around.

[Jacob]

Dang, you get around.

It's quite the life. No vacation is complete without a 3 hour block

[Pheidippides]

I am not sure if it is fair to paint it in black and white terms like that. I am sure the church leadership covers a spectrum of viewpoints and it would depend who you are listening to. I am seeing an increasing number of faithful LDS scholars argue for a less literal approach to things. They get some blowback from the usual suspects, but overall it is well received. And the recent LDS essay on the BOA would seem to be evidence of a shift. Baby steps.

JL, you should probably buckle up for next year then. 3rd hours is - wait for it - Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson. And there's a specific lesson on the 14 fundamentals. That seems like it has the potential for a giant step back.

[Moliere]

I learned in church today

It's quite the life. No vacation is complete without a 3 hour block

Lebowski knows that. He even attends church when he's in Vegas...even if he has to walk through a casino to get there.

[Topper]

Casinos arr our temples.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Lebowski knows that. He even attends church when he's in Vegas...even if he has to walk through a casino to get there.

Damn straight.

[Harry Tic]

JL, you should probably buckle up for next year then. 3rd hours is - wait for it - Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson. And there's a specific lesson on the 14 fundamentals. That seems like it has the potential for a giant step back.

Do you have a link on that, Niku? Peggy says that the ETB manual will contain nothing of ETB's political hobbyhorsing.

I wouldn't put it past Correlation to draw upon the 14 Fundamentals talk in some way, though. That kind of sentiment has remained much more influential than the old McCarthy-era firebreathing.