I learned in church today

[dabrockster]

I think you're misunderstanding the logic behind that teaching. Just my two cents.

I understand the logic of how the Gospel is the same among our church and every lesson taught is the same one taught across the world. However, the example they have used is specific to everyone being taught the same lesson that specific Sunday across the world, is like Jay stated, not possible.. But I understood what they were saying because I don't really critique every word in such a way... Probably because I have such a way with words that leaves everyone confounded and what they said actually makes perfect sense to me...

[Paperback Writer]

And this is where the concept of reincarnation seems far more logical than our concept that you get a single mortal life.

I've been on this train (of thought) for sometime. Never bought the party line in regards to infant mortality: "Well, they were just so obedient in the pre-existence that all they needed was to live a few days to expereince birth and gain a mortal body". That means the most obedient and valient in pre-earth life were among those billions who have died soon after childbirth. I think there may be choices and some (many?) choose or are placed back in the mortal queue. In my view, a lot of this "perfection" being described occurs in mortality over many lifetimes. I fully admit that this is heretical thinking but makes more rational sense to me than clackamascoug's "dimensions without end"...

[clackamascoug]

Because the board is slow, and someone has to step up, I'll "guess" what the answers would be.

Say - you are are at singular crossroad and two possiblilities split off into two different dimensional streams that will play out until you die. The negative choice doesn't automatically mean you'll make bad choices the rest of your life. You repent, and now in two different dimensions you live rather similiar lives. In regards to the "calling and election" scenario, I'm sure that if you "made" calling and election status in 33% of you lives, that the other 66% of the lives would be pretty good also. If say that 10% of you lives were nothing but bad decision after another, and you eneded up as a candidate for hell, who would make a better Celestial Being. The person would undertood the first hand ramifications of sin, or the person who never wandered too far. I think on the job experience makes for a better manager.

In my vision, becoming an omnicient super hero is about drawing upon experiences on one's self, and not stories from others. A milllion (billion?) data points sounds a lot more efficient at becomeing a God than just a singular life and a limited exposure.

Multiple dimensions helps understand how things good and bad could be in play.

Joseph Smith.
- His "vision" may have included multiple dimensions, and seeing the end game and the result of being married to different women. He interprets multiple wifes in heaven, with multiple wifes on earth, and sets about to make it happen. (I imagine that is some dimension Emme was his only wife, and the church skipped the whole polygamy thingie) (In some dimension he married someone else all together, and that played out as well in that realm.)
- Joseph Smith's actions may have played out in different dimensions, some better than others, and then he will have learned how what he did effected the church memebers long after he died.
- In some dimension Joseph and Hyrum kept going and ended up out west, and the church went on from there.
- The experiences of Joseph Smith that we've ended up with in this dimension, are neither good or bad. They are what they are, and we're judged by how we react to the information, in this dimension.
- In some dimension Joseph may have been translated. In another, he may not have gotten the church off the ground.

Polygamy
- Already touched upon, but ultimately we all could be married to hundreds/thousands of different people in other dimensions, with different children. Parents are always the same ground zero.
- When we die and the dimensions are recomplied into a heavenly being, we will have multiple relatioships with people we love and have a 1/1 history.
- In some dimension, my parents didn't divorce, and I lived with my Dad for all those years. (Maybe this is where my psychosis comes from)

The Atonement.
- It's always bugged me to hear "worlds without end" and then to hear that this was the only world that Christ created that was evil enough to crucify him. The odds of infinity to one that Christ was crucified on this earth and none other, make it mathematically impossible. OR, there is only one Earth, and Christ was crucified once, but in a million dimensions, of which he was perfect in every one.
- "As the Sands of the Sea." If each world was like a grain of sand at the sea, that is a bunch. What if the Earth is Jesus's only planetary creation, and the worlds without number as actually defined are multiple dimensions where he could be crucified once, for the sins of the Earth, yet, it would also be an infinite Atonement because of the infinite amount of dimensions that spin off. Makes a lot more sense than a crucifiction on a singular planet for trillions of other planets where Christ would be hallowed as a God. What makes more sense?

Becoming a god and forgiving others
- What if we were all in the same boat, and we all had the opportunity to play the role of good and evil. We would all be equally good, and we would all be equally bad, but we would also be equally cleansed by the Atonement. In the Heavens it would be like a "Band of Brothers" where we went to war on earth and experienced all the earth had to offer, for better or worse. Knowing what it's like to have the reward of proper decision making, and the pain of poor decision making. As a "free will" people we need to know everything there is to know if we are going to progress towards all that our father has.

Cut Short Lives.
- Maybe somewhere it would be good for us to die young. Maybe it's beneficial to have a child die. Extreme loss, and extreme pain can teach us a lot of how to be empathetic towards others. As a celestial being, that might be a very good trait to have.
- Not every child that dies young has to die young. The kids at Sandy Hook, may be alive and kicking in a neighboring dimension and they will all live to full and great lives. Or mediocre lives. Or bad ones.

I've posted this as a thinking excercise. If you think it's crazy, it's OK. Just don't make fun of me for thinking big.

[Goatnapper'96]

I saw what I think is a miracle on Sunday. A young man in our ward just returned home from serving a mission in St Louis. I am sure he was a fine missionary and he delivered a very genuine and mature homecoming talk. In light of the photostory that bluegoose posted I thought I would share this. The kid is a descendent from mormon pioneers on his mother's side. However, along the way things had gone awry both spiritually and temporally. He was born into a real shitty existence, much like those two precious kids of Maggie and her GI-ex that she is running back to. He had an older sister and a younger sister. Their bio parents were complete messes and likely strung out on drugs. About the time the little boy was 4 or 5 their maternal grandmother married a fellow quite a bit younger than she. He was also a descendent of mormon pioneers, likely not an entirely odd thing in SE Idaho, who was not a member of the LDS Church. However, he was/is a really good man. While he himself had a rather sordid past that includes alcoholism, some drug abuse as well as social challenges- but he had sobered up. He put his foot down with his wife and demanded that they step in legally and adopt her 3 grandkids. Eventually they settled out in my little town - even though he has been a career plumber that worked in Pocatello. Long story short is the son of his that just returned home from his mission joined the Church in his teens. Many spent a long time working with the grandma/adopted mother and adopted father as she came back into activity and he was eventually baptized. When their son went through the temple before his mission the parents went through with him and the family was sealed - save the lad's older sister that seems to have followed her bio mom's pattern. I thought how as this clean cut wholesome young man was speaking that his grandparents stepping into his life many years ago was a miracle. Certainly he has some really good tendencies and I certainly believe we all have some control over our destinies, but statistically speaking without that intervention his chances were not good to have a good and happy life. I don't know if he is going to stay an active mormon forever, perhaps he will find out about the crazy things Mormons have done or believe and will find a great internet community to whine about it like the women of Srbrnca, but I am convinced that he will have a successful and happy life. I think he will live a life of serving others and seeking after the things that really matter and bring us all genuine fulfillment and joy. I don't believe he will end up like his mother or a ward of the state - which I think would have been the case had his grandparents not adopted him and gotten him out of that shitty environment. I really hope Maggie's two kids get a similar chance at life. There are happy endings sometime and the good we try to do can make a difference. Sometimes when I read stories like Maggies and my heart aches for her kids I have to remind myself that there are happy endings on occassion. Perhaps one of you wanted a happy ending story as well.

[fusnik]

Perfection has to be elusive or unattainable or else we'll just be bored for eternity....or perhaps perfection is simply improving oneself every day. Frankly I have no good idea. The beauty of the Mormon concept of the hereafter is that we can become gods, however if that means an end to progression then maybe it's not really that much more different than the concept of sitting on a cloud and strumming a harp for eternity...only in Mormondom you get to strum a harp while sitting next to your wife.

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained this – that is, I have not already been perfected – but I strive to lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus also laid hold of me. 3:13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself to have attained this. Instead I am single-minded: Forgetting the things that are behind and reaching out for the things that are ahead, 3:14 with this goal in mind, I strive toward the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

[marsupial]

Well.. There goes THAT missionary quote of "You can be in Jasper, Wyoming and your relative could be in Japan and you both will be taught the same lesson in both churches because......."

Where is Jasper, Wyoming?

[creekster]

Where is Jasper, Wyoming?

A little east of Jaramie, I think.

[dabrockster]

Where is Jasper, Wyoming?

[Indy Coug]

A little east of Jaramie, I think.

Is that shouting distance from Jellostone?

[ERCougar]

Perfection has to be elusive or unattainable or else we'll just be bored for eternity....or perhaps perfection is simply improving oneself every day. Frankly I have no good idea. The beauty of the Mormon concept of the hereafter is that we can become gods, however if that means an end to progression then maybe it's not really that much more different than the concept of sitting on a cloud and strumming a harp for eternity...only in Mormondom you get to strum a harp while sitting next to your wife.

Don't you think that self-perfection/improvement quests are ultimately selfish? I don't know that you can really become perfect (or "complete") without losing a sense of "self" altogether. As a result, if we're exalted, "progression" means something altogether different than what it means here. My two cents.

Another free two cents! I definitely believe in multiple probations (whether this takes place in the form of reincarnation or multiple dimensions or something else, I have no idea) and/or progression between kingdoms. To square this with Alma's warning about not procrastinating repentance, I compare it--yes, you can get C's and D's in high school and still turn things around and do well in college, but chances are, the same set of values and circumstances that led you to make the choices in high school will probably carry over to college. The smartest thing is to try to do well from the beginning.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Is that shouting distance from Jellostone?

Jellystone

[Indy Coug]

Don't you think that self-perfection/improvement quests are ultimately selfish? I don't know that you can really become perfect (or "complete") without losing a sense of "self" altogether.

But that's the beauty of it. You can't become perfect unless you become selfless.

[dabrockster]

Is that shouting distance from Jellostone?

hmmmmmm.. Jello

[Indy Coug]

hmmmmmm.. Jello

You must be Mormon.

[ERCougar]

But that's the beauty of it. You can't become perfect unless you become selfless.

Right, that's what I'm saying. As a perfect (and I still like the word "complete" here, but substitute "enlightened" or your term of choice) being, progression as we know it doesn't really exist. The only thing that would make that state boring is if you're not really perfect and still worried about selfishly progressing. The father-child analogy works here too, I think.