I learned in church today

[All-American]

No; you may just be limited in the ways that you can progress.

[jay santos]

The primary lesson today was "Witnesses See the Gold Plates"

Kind of strange that a large portion of the lesson was focused on how David Whitmer met Joseph Smith and a long story about how Whitmer miraculously finished his work up early so he would have time to help Joseph, with an implication that it was the Three Nephites.

The next day David went to the place he had left the plaster, near his sister’s house, but the plaster was gone. His sister told him that the day before, she and her children had seen three strangers spreading the plaster with great speed and skill. She had assumed they were men David had hired, but David knew they were helpers provided by the Lord.

I'm not one of those that are real critical of the lesson plans the church publishes, but I do think it's a head scratcher to include that in a lesson devoted to the 3 and 8 witnesses.

[Moliere]

No; you may just be limited in the ways that you can progress.

Ways as in methods or ways as in potential?

[All-American]

Ways as in methods or ways as in potential?

Both, if I understand your question correctly.

For example, by way of analogy, I just graduated from law school within the last year. I learned a lot in law school, and a part of me regrets not having another year, since there were so many classes I didn't get to take from professors with whom I would have liked to have taken classes. Given the way the field of law perpetually changes, I probably could have stayed in law school for the rest of my life and never stopped learning. But nothing in law school prepares you for that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach the first time you have a real case in front of a real judge. There are some things you just can't learn until you get yourself into a courtroom.

Not having visited any of the three kingdoms recently, I could be wrong in all sorts of ways in my understanding of what they are like, but I think the analogy might be helpful. The differences in the kingdoms are such that there may be no end to the potential of the individual to progress, except that they will not be able to progress in certain ways. We are told, for example, that the only individuals who will be sealed are those who obtain the highest degree of glory. Individuals in the lower degrees of glory may have limitless potential to develop as individuals, but whatever growth and potential may be available only to those who are sealed as eternal families will be beyond their reach.

Joseph Fielding Smith gave the following statement, which I think squares away with what I said above:

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.

[Pheidippides]

I learned a lot in law school, and a part of me regrets not having another year, since there were so many classes I didn't get to take from professors with whom I would have liked to have taken classes.

I'm sorry; what were you saying again? I couldn't get past this sentence because of my own loud laughter.

[All-American]

I'm sorry; what were you saying again? I couldn't get past this sentence because of my own loud laughter.

Look, I am a strange kid. Anybody who knows me knows that.

I really liked law school. I wasn't sad to move on, but there is definitely a part of me that regrets not having been able to take certain classes with certain professors. There just weren't enough time slots available.

[jay santos]

Both, if I understand your question correctly.

For example, by way of analogy, I just graduated from law school within the last year. I learned a lot in law school, and a part of me regrets not having another year, since there were so many classes I didn't get to take from professors with whom I would have liked to have taken classes. Given the way the field of law perpetually changes, I probably could have stayed in law school for the rest of my life and never stopped learning. But nothing in law school prepares you for that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach the first time you have a real case in front of a real judge. There are some things you just can't learn until you get yourself into a courtroom.

Not having visited any of the three kingdoms recently, I could be wrong in all sorts of ways in my understanding of what they are like, but I think the analogy might be helpful. The differences in the kingdoms are such that there may be no end to the potential of the individual to progress, except that they will not be able to progress in certain ways. We are told, for example, that the only individuals who will be sealed are those who obtain the highest degree of glory. Individuals in the lower degrees of glory may have limitless potential to develop as individuals, but whatever growth and potential may be available only to those who are sealed as eternal families will be beyond their reach.

Joseph Fielding Smith gave the following statement, which I think squares away with what I said above:

I haven't seen anyone quote JFS (either of them) as a source of doctrinal purity in a serious way for quite a while. Do you take the things (either) JFS taught as absolute truth? They seem to have been proven wrong on things as often as they've been proven right.

[Moliere]

Both, if I understand your question correctly.

For example, by way of analogy, I just graduated from law school within the last year. I learned a lot in law school, and a part of me regrets not having another year, since there were so many classes I didn't get to take from professors with whom I would have liked to have taken classes. Given the way the field of law perpetually changes, I probably could have stayed in law school for the rest of my life and never stopped learning. But nothing in law school prepares you for that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach the first time you have a real case in front of a real judge. There are some things you just can't learn until you get yourself into a courtroom.

Not having visited any of the three kingdoms recently, I could be wrong in all sorts of ways in my understanding of what they are like, but I think the analogy might be helpful. The differences in the kingdoms are such that there may be no end to the potential of the individual to progress, except that they will not be able to progress in certain ways. We are told, for example, that the only individuals who will be sealed are those who obtain the highest degree of glory. Individuals in the lower degrees of glory may have limitless potential to develop as individuals, but whatever growth and potential may be available only to those who are sealed as eternal families will be beyond their reach.

Joseph Fielding Smith gave the following statement, which I think squares away with what I said above:

Eternal progression is obviously a concept that we can't understand...at least fully and may never understand. Your description above reminds me of a lecture I had in 8th grade geometry that, to this day, still blows my mind. The class was told to imagine two lines that were on the same plane and the lines extended forever. The lines also got closer and closer to each other but they never touched even though they extended forever. In some ways that's how it seems you described eternal progression, where two people are eternally progressing but one will never get to where the other was. I think about it more as a train where one follows the other, but never fully catches up to the person in the first kingdom. I don't think either idea is fully right or wrong, just interesting to think about.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Look, I am a strange kid. Anybody who knows me knows that.

I really liked law school. I wasn't sad to move on, but there is definitely a part of me that regrets not having been able to take certain classes with certain professors. There just weren't enough time slots available.

I'm not smart enough to get into law school, but I'm smart enough to know that wanting to be Van Wilder sounds fun.

[creekster]

Eternal progression is obviously a concept that we can't understand...at least fully and may never understand. Your description above reminds me of a lecture I had in 8th grade geometry that, to this day, still blows my mind. The class was told to imagine two lines that were on the same plane and the lines extended forever. The lines also got closer and closer to each other but they never touched even though they extended forever. In some ways that's how it seems you described eternal progression, where two people are eternally progressing but one will never get to where the other was. I think about it more as a train where one follows the other, but never fully catches up to the person in the first kingdom. I don't think either idea is fully right or wrong, just interesting to think about.

Does this mean there is some set of beings who will forever be more advanced, and thus more perfect, than God or Jesus?

[dabrockster]

The primary lesson today was "Witnesses See the Gold Plates"

Kind of strange that a large portion of the lesson was focused on how David Whitmer met Joseph Smith and a long story about how Whitmer miraculously finished his work up early so he would have time to help Joseph, with an implication that it was the Three Nephites.



I'm not one of those that are real critical of the lesson plans the church publishes, but I do think it's a head scratcher to include that in a lesson devoted to the 3 and 8 witnesses.

Are you behind a week? Just curious because we taught that one last week, and it seems a lot of the other teachers taught that one as well. I am wondering if we are ahead a week..

[Moliere]

Does this mean there is some set of beings who will forever be more advanced, and thus more perfect, than God or Jesus?

My answer would be "yes" but I'm open to that not being correct. Of course, that would depend on your definition of "more perfect" and "more advanced."

[jay santos]

Are you behind a week? Just curious because we taught that one last week, and it seems a lot of the other teachers taught that one as well. I am wondering if we are ahead a week..

Usually they schedule these at the ward or stake level, so I don't know if you're ahead or behind.

[creekster]

My answer would be "yes" but I'm open to that not being correct. Of course, that would depend on your definition of "more perfect" and "more advanced."

That definition would have to come from you, as you are the one describing thids eternal progression notion. The point, to me, is that what you describes means perfection will always be elusive and also leaves unanswered the question of who/what created the universe. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but not exactly consonant with typically accepted views on the subject.

[clackamascoug]

Does this mean there is some set of beings who will forever be more advanced, and thus more perfect, than God or Jesus?

And this is where the wheels came of in the lesson. One 70 year old lifelong member took umbrage in the possibility that there may be a superior Being than Elohim, and then calling the others out for speculating about unimportant things. He was immediatly jumped on and told that everything is important when it deals with the Gospel, and how could he not know that Elohim has a Father? Then an 83 year old came to his defense, and the 83 year old yelled at the "instructor" and the instructor yelled back. (Long time personal differences between the two probably qued the yelling.)

The HPGL is more of a follower, and the whole thing went way past where it should have gone, but, the class time flew by for a change. Not a bad thing.