Breaking Bad

[Jeff Lebowski]

It helps, but not enough that he shouldn't be calling bullshit. The odds that Jesse could find those thing was just way too remote for him to be anything other than incredulous.

Stop nitpicking! It's not enjoyable.

[Donuthole]

Did they? Like Walt believed Jesse followed him on GPS? I can't remember. Walt has always treated Jesse like kind of an idiot, which is why him falling for any type of Jesse baiting just doesn't work for me.

Hank finds out the van didn't have GPS and then says something like "But Walt doesn't know that". Then when Jesse calls Walt, i think he says something about the van having a GPS.

The implication was that they had tracked down the van, discovered the van had a GPS and they were able to look up where Walt took the van to hide the money. It's a bit convoluted, but I actually think it's less of a jump than believing Jesse would remember that Huell could have swiped the Ricin from him.

[SandYFan]

[COLOR=#800080]Hank finds out the van didn't have GPS and then says something like "But Walt doesn't know that". Then when Jesse calls Walt, i think he says something about the van having a GPS.

The implication was that they had tracked down the van, discovered the van had a GPS and they were able to look up where Walt took the van to hide the money. /COLOR]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Assuming Walt didn't sweep the van for a transmitter like Saul had told him to a few episodes ago.

[MarkGrace]

Hank finds out the van didn't have GPS and then says something like "But Walt doesn't know that". Then when Jesse calls Walt, i think he says something about the van having a GPS.

The implication was that they had tracked down the van, discovered the van had a GPS and they were able to look up where Walt took the van to hide the money. It's a bit convoluted, but I actually think it's less of a jump than believing Jesse would remember that Huell could have swiped the Ricin from him.

The implication for Walt would have been that Jesse tracked down the van and discovered it had GPS, not "they." How would he have done that? I think if Walt knows Jesse is working with the DEA it would have worked better because then Jesse has all kinds of access and resources. But all Walt thinks is Jesse didn't meet the guy to disappear into no man's land and has gone rogue trying to get back at him. Jesse on his own just couldn't pull this off, and that's the information Walt is working with. Walt has consistently treated Jesse like the world's biggest dumbass. He's never listened to him, never taken his advice, never believed him capable, and never taken him seriously. Obviously the gasoline moment got his attention, but it just seems like the Walt of most of this show has never given Jesse enough credit to start immediately biting on everything he says, especially when he knows Jesse is trying to get back at him. And he became so methodical and his plans were so well-executed in taking down Fring that's it's hard for me to believe he would have jumped all over the Jesse bait without giving pause.

[MarkGrace]

Stop nitpicking! It's not enjoyable.

Well it worked for me in the way the shootout did in that it created a great dramatic moment. Walt racing through the desert and knowing he was about to be followed by the DEA was pretty dang awesome. But the execution to get that moment just felt a little sloppy. Though I guess all of that led to the shootout so maybe we should just get back to complaining about the shootout!

[Donuthole]

The implication for Walt would have been that Jesse tracked down the van and discovered it had GPS, not "they." How would he have done that? I think if Walt knows Jesse is working with the DEA it would have worked better because then Jesse has all kinds of access and resources. But all Walt thinks is Jesse didn't meet the guy to disappear into no man's land and has gone rogue trying to get back at him. Jesse on his own just couldn't pull this off, and that's the information Walt is working with. Walt has consistently treated Jesse like the world's biggest dumbass. He's never listened to him, never taken his advice, never believed him capable, and never taken him seriously. Obviously the gasoline moment got his attention, but it just seems like the Walt of most of this show has never given Jesse enough credit to start immediately biting on everything he says, especially when he knows Jesse is trying to get back at him. And he became so methodical and his plans were so well-executed in taking down Fring that's it's hard for me to believe he would have jumped all over the Jesse bait without giving pause.

How would Jesse have found out he rented a van in the first place? If he is smart enough to figure out he rented a van, isn't he smart enough to find (or pay) someone to help him figure out if it had GPS? Also, Walt has consistently treated Jesse like the world's biggest dumbass, but he also knows Jesse figured out enough to not leave town and to not meet up with him to talk. Also, as the phone conversation develops, they discuss Walt's poisoning of Brock, meaning he now knows Jesse has figured things out (and therefore, is not the dumb kid he could once count on playing the fool). In the heat of the moment, and with his money on the line, I don't think it's much of a stretch to see Walt act impulsively.

Throughout the story, when Heisenberg has time to plan stuff, he's brilliant. When Walt has to act without planning, he's a wreck. This seems pretty consistent with that paradigm.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Well it worked for me in the way the shootout did in that it created a great dramatic moment. Walt racing through the desert and knowing he was about to be followed by the DEA was pretty dang awesome. But the execution to get that moment just felt a little sloppy. Though I guess all of that led to the shootout so maybe we should just get back to complaining about the shootout!

That was a joke. Geez Grace, you are whiffing on everything!

[MarkGrace]

That was a joke. Geez Grace, you are whiffing on everything!

I know...I saw the first comment.

[MarkGrace]

How would Jesse have found out he rented a van in the first place?

Exactly! I think you're catching the vision of how Walt should have been thinking now. It should have all been making his bullshit meter run wild.

Throughout the story, when Heisenberg has time to plan stuff, he's brilliant. When Walt has to act without planning, he's a wreck. This seems pretty consistent with that paradigm.

You know, as much as I've loved the homestretch here, this is where the narrative is kind of going off the rails for me. Or maybe not off the rails, but just not as expected and a bit tough to reconcile. Before the second half of this season, we really haven't seen Walt for a while, as he had fully transformed into Heisenberg. They had him on a very specific trajectory, and Gilligan's promise of Mr. Chips into Scarface looked like the real arc of the character. "I'm the one who knocks," "I'm in the empire building business," and all that other stuff that culminated when he bested Fring just seemed like the full realization of Heisenberg and there was no turning back. But in this second half of the season they've really backtracked on that, and there's a lot more Walt at play. Walt's planning early in the series was a wreck, but it's been so long since we've seen that that it's tough to get back in the mindset of seeing him bumble and fumble around again and expect that to be believable. The character of the last two seasons just doesn't seem like someone who would be flailing around recklessly on some Jesse bait. And even the character of the first couple seasons didn't think highly enough of Jesse to do it either. Just feels off to me.

[Donuthole]

Exactly! I think you're catching the vision of how Walt should have been thinking now. It should have all been making his bullshit meter run wild.

I think you're missing my point. Jesse has let him know that he knows he rented a van. He's got to be thinking "If Jesse knows that, what else has he figured out?" It can't seem that far fetched for Jesse to have figured out that the van had a GPS and have paid someone to help him figure out the van's travel history (as plausible as that may or may not be). At best Jesse has figured this out on his own. At worst, he's working with someone who helped him figure it out. Either way, Jesse absolutely knows Walt rented a van and has let Walt know that he knows Walt rented a van. That wouldn't make his bullshit meter run wild as much as it would make his "what else does he know' meter run wild.

[SoCalCoug]

I think I watch shows differently than most of you guys. Maybe it's because of the kind of stuff I like to read, which is generally not very real-to-life anyway, but I must be much more willing in my suspension of disbelief than most around here. If it's a good show, I'm usually able to accept the story as it comes without too much question. Yeah, sometimes it can get too weird to follow, but then I just stop watching the show.

I've also never gotten into criticizing how a movie or a book or a television show ends; it ends as intended by the writer/creator/author, and it's consistent with what they are trying to say. I see it as kind of co-opting the art by saying it should have ended in a different, particular way, or the characters should have done something different. A good writer is trying to say something with his work. I like to try to figure out what that is, instead of complaining that it wasn't said the way I would have said it.

Sorry, this may be more condescending than intended, but as a writer (right now, just of legal stuff - which actually has derailed my other ambitions), I get a little annoyed when, rather than try to decide what the work means to them, people try to force their own views and interpretations on it by saying a different scene or ending would have been better. I always assume a book ended exactly as the author intended.

The Breaking Bad writers have done a brilliant job, and I tend to assume that any plot points that seem incongruent were a necessary part of the story, whether due to limitations of the medium, or other pressures, but they are necessary to tell the story the writers have intended.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think I watch shows differently than most of you guys. Maybe it's because of the kind of stuff I like to read, which is generally not very real-to-life anyway, but I must be much more willing in my suspension of disbelief than most around here. If it's a good show, I'm usually able to accept the story as it comes without too much question. Yeah, sometimes it can get too weird to follow, but then I just stop watching the show.

I've also never gotten into criticizing how a movie or a book or a television show ends; it ends as intended by the writer/creator/author, and it's consistent with what they are trying to say. I see it as kind of co-opting the art by saying it should have ended in a different, particular way, or the characters should have done something different. A good writer is trying to say something with his work. I like to try to figure out what that is, instead of complaining that it wasn't said the way I would have said it.

Sorry, this may be more condescending than intended, but as a writer (right now, just of legal stuff - which actually has derailed my other ambitions), I get a little annoyed when, rather than try to decide what the work means to them, people try to force their own views and interpretations on it by saying a different scene or ending would have been better. I always assume a book ended exactly as the author intended.

The Breaking Bad writers have done a brilliant job, and I tend to assume that any plot points that seem incongruent were a necessary part of the story, whether due to limitations of the medium, or other pressures, but they are necessary to tell the story the writers have intended.

Allow me to state once again what we have said many times in the past week: these things are noteworthy and fun to chat about because this show has been close to perfection every single episode.

[MarkGrace]

I think you're missing my point. Jesse has let him know that he knows he rented a van. He's got to be thinking "If Jesse knows that, what else has he figured out?" It can't seem that far fetched for Jesse to have figured out that the van had a GPS and have paid someone to help him figure out the van's travel history (as plausible as that may or may not be). At best Jesse has figured this out on his own. At worst, he's working with someone who helped him figure it out. Either way, Jesse absolutely knows Walt rented a van and has let Walt know that he knows Walt rented a van. That wouldn't make his bullshit meter run wild as much as it would make his "what else does he know' meter run wild.

And I guess my point is why in the world would Walt believe that? It's the first in a sequence of many things that the Walt they've developed just doesn't seem like he would have jumped on. Even before all this Jesse keeps reiterating "you'll never get him, he's too smart, he's smarter than you, he's smarter than all of us" and on and on. But maybe if I pretend I know he had a van, and I pretend it had GPS, and I pretend I was able to located the money even following the GPS, and then I send him a fake photo, well then just maybe he'll believe it. Doesn't add up. That's not smart at all, that's dumb. How would the spiraling out of control kid with no connections, no friends (well, Badger and Skinny Pete, but they're not much help) and no resources know that he rented a van and then be able to figure out exactly which van that was? Too many leaps when Walt has never taken anything Jesse said seriously. I guess you could say the Brock revelation changed things, but he's been on the verge of figuring the Brock thing out forever and that one didn't seem too hard -- it was either Walt or Fring. Jesse would have to figure out about where that money was and how it got there with absolutely zero leads. The only people that could have ever relayed anything regarding the details there were connected to Saul, and he's on Walt's side, not Jesse's, and Walt knows that. As it went down I was a bit disappointed, but the tension and drama that took off from there was awesome.

[Donuthole]

And I guess my point is why in the world would Walt believe that? It's the first in a sequence of many things that the Walt they've developed just doesn't seem like he would have jumped on. Even before all this Jesse keeps reiterating "you'll never get him, he's too smart, he's smarter than you, he's smarter than all of us" and on and on. But maybe if I pretend I know he had a van, and I pretend it had GPS, and I pretend I was able to located the money even following the GPS, and then I send him a fake photo, well then just maybe he'll believe it. Doesn't add up. That's not smart at all, that's dumb. How would the spiraling out of control kid with no connections, no friends (well, Badger and Skinny Pete, but they're not much help) and no resources know that he rented a van and then be able to figure out exactly which van that was? Too many leaps when Walt has never taken anything Jesse said seriously. I guess you could say the Brock revelation changed things, but he's been on the verge of figuring the Brock thing out forever and that one didn't seem too hard -- it was either Walt or Fring. Jesse would have to figure out about where that money was and how it got there with absolutely zero leads. The only people that could have ever relayed anything regarding the details there were connected to Saul, and he's on Walt's side, not Jesse's, and Walt knows that. As it went down I was a bit disappointed, but the tension and drama that took off from there was awesome.

He doesn't have to believe it--he knows it! In other words, Walt knows he rented a van and now Jesse is telling him "Hey, i know you rented a van". Are you saying that Walt should believe Jesse is bluffing, even when Jesse is telling him things which Walt knows to be true (rented van, ricin stolen, poisoned Brock). Those are facts which Walt now knows Jesse has figured out (irrespective of how Jesse figured them out--all Walt knows is somehow he did).

So I guess we'll have to disagree. For me, those facts--things with Jesse has now told Walt he knows--combined with a picture of the barrel/money, provide a totality of circumstances which makes the story believable from Walt's perspective.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not sure it is realistic that 10+ mafiosos could be killed during the time it took Michael Corleone to renounce satan, at his nephew's baptism. I've attended a Catholic baptism before, I know they're long, but really....