No more drum and feather?

[San Juan Sun]

Have we learned nothing from our country's long record of mistreatment of Native Americans? How many agreements has the white man rescinded? How many times have tribes been used and then discarded when no longer seen as useful?

Now we have a tribe willing to work with the state, for reasonable, agreed upon concessions. But the state seems to have buyers remorse, and is going to sever yet another agreement.

The new mascot should be the Utah Treatybreakers.

Totally kidding.

[LA Ute]

No, we all get it. BYU stole the Yale "Y" and look how cute it is to show someone whom you assumed we might mistake for a BYU student. Except that not a single Y grad on God's green earth would think that guy could be a real life BYU student.

And, I was an Econ grad, not a finance guy. I, like most other BYU econ grads, know how to do finance without a calculator

OK, I'll spell it out a little more. You weren't supposed to think he was a BYU student. (I guess he could have been one with a beard card?) Just pointing out the remarkable coincidence of the same colors and the "Y" symbol.

Pellegrino, I knew about the failure to plan for enough material to make a complete "BYU" on the hillside. There was already a "U" on the hill in Salt Lake. But I am sure the idea to put a "Y" up was totally original. Neener-neener.

[Scorcho]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/53...-logo.html.csp

a little more from the salt lake tribune about the drum n' feather and nickname

- Hill claims this has nothing to do with PAC-12 membership.

- there is some internal pressure from the university to drop the Utes nickname.

Several years ago, the University of Wisconsin instituted an athletic policy that they would no longer schedule out of conference games with schools with Indian nicknames. I don't know if that is still in place? Considering the recent agreement between the Big-10 and the PAC-12, maybe that accelerated the dropping of "Utes" and the Drum N' Feather by Utah's Athletic Dept???

[LA Ute]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/53...-logo.html.csp

a little more from the salt lake tribune about the drum n' feather and nickname

- Hill claims this has nothing to do with PAC-12 membership.

- there is some internal pressure from the university to drop the Utes nickname.

Several years ago, the University of Wisconsin instituted an athletic policy that they would no longer schedule out of conference games with schools with Indian nicknames. I don't know if that is still in place? Considering the recent agreement between the Big-10 and the PAC-12, maybe that accelerated the dropping of "Utes" and the Drum N' Feather by Utah's Athletic Dept???

Here's another entirely different approach to the issue - the Florida State Seminoles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sp...pagewanted=all

http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/

I wish whatever voices are calling for a change at Utah would emulate the Seminoles' approach. It seems to me that if it were not for Florida State very few people would know what a Seminole is. To a lesser extent that's true for the Ute tribe too. But if they don't want the publicity that comes from being the respected Utah nickname, fine. It seems like a shame, but bring on the Crimson Warriors.

[myboynoah]

LA appears to be taking all of this news pretty hard, lashing out in all directions. A sad way to start out the new year.

This too shall pass, this too shall pass.

On topic, Hawks seems fairly original. How many other universities sport that mascot?

[Viking]

Here's another entirely different approach to the issue - the Florida State Seminoles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sp...pagewanted=all

http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/

I wish whatever voices are calling for a change at Utah would emulate the Seminoles' approach. It seems to me that if it were not for Florida State very few people would know what a Seminole is. To a lesser extent that's true for the Ute tribe too. But if they don't want the publicity that comes from being the respected Utah nickname, fine. It seems like a shame, but bring on the Crimson Warriors.

As I dont want to be labeled a misogynist, I will refrain from commentary re bringing on the crimson warriors

[Surfah]

http://www.cougarboard.com/board/mes...tml?id=7994898

Who knows if Shoganai is correct, but if he is, Utah even steals its mascot changes. In 1999 the Seattle University Chieftains became the Redhawks. Would Utah have gone with that if it wasn't already taken?

Yes!

[Viking]

Sego Lilies?
Mormon Crickets?
Abandoned Miners?
Swedish Meatballers? (this might hurt recruiting ex Tennis)

[Portland Ute]

LA appears to be taking all of this news pretty hard, lashing out in all directions. A sad way to start out the new year.

This too shall pass, this too shall pass.

On topic, Hawks seems fairly original. How many other universities sport that mascot?

No other BCS school, off the top of my head.

[Scorcho]

Here's another entirely different approach to the issue - the Florida State Seminoles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sp...pagewanted=all

http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/

I wish whatever voices are calling for a change at Utah would emulate the Seminoles' approach. It seems to me that if it were not for Florida State very few people would know what a Seminole is. To a lesser extent that's true for the Ute tribe too. But if they don't want the publicity that comes from being the respected Utah nickname, fine. It seems like a shame, but bring on the Crimson Warriors.

I always thought the University and the Ute Tribe had a good working relationship, but after reading those articles it doesn't appear anywhere as close as Florida State University and the Seminoles.

If there is pressure from inside the University, the NCAA and others then dropping the logo and nickname seems like the right thing to do.

[LA Ute]

LA appears to be taking all of this news pretty hard, lashing out in all directions. A sad way to start out the new year.

This too shall pass, this too shall pass.

On topic, Hawks seems fairly original. How many other universities sport that mascot?

Just having fun with the desperate attempts at schadenfreude by BYU fans who are clearly in deep pain, if the Armed Forces Bowl thread is any indication.

[shoganai]

The UofU had an initial run-in with the Utes back in 1996 when the tribe threatened to sue for reparatory compensation for the use of the name and associated logos.

Arthur K. Smith, president of the U at the time, sat down with tribal leaders and made it firmly clear that the university would never offer direct compensation for further use of the name. Smith wisely recognized the pandora's box that would open. But, he did manage to strike a deal that included scholarships (basically, anyone in the tribe who can pass some bare minimum application requirements will get a full ride), and some other indirect monetary concessions (I've heard that tribe members get a massive discount on licensed merchandise).

So, the deal was struck and Utah began using the Ute name and logos with full "support" of the tribe. However, that same year, Swoop the Red-tailed Hawk also mysteriously appeared and the first scattered Swoop/Hawk-related merchandise showed up on the shelves.

Bottom line, Utah saw the writing on the wall. Though they were able to reach terms for the immediate future, Smith and co. figured it was only a matter of time before either the tribe or the NCAA pressure forced them to drop the name/logo, so they started making other plans for the day they'd have to make a switch. Swoop and the block U logo have gradually become more and more prominent ever since.

There was a brief altercation when the NCAA passed its embarrassingly ridiculous mandate against tribal names and logos in August of 2005. The association "clarified" it when they realized how stupid it was in the first place, and Cuch (who had ascended to his leadership in the local native american groups by that time) got a standing ovation when he showed up at the Utes' season-opener against Arizona a few weeks later.

In early 2011 Cuch was fired by Gary Herbert from an appointed position in Indian Affairs and was hired as the CEO of the Ute tribe's business wing. His tasks include revitalizing the lagging business interests of the tribe (read: boost revenue - times are tough for native american interests as well).

It's worth clarifying that Cuch isn't necessarily a bad guy spearheading some crusade to extort money from a public university. There are a lot of deep feelings within the tribe that the school owes them some objective compensation for the way it has benefitted from the commercial use of its name and heritage. Cuch's loyalties and position are clear, and he's doing his job.

Recently, the tribe has communicated that they feel justified in pursuing further concessions from the UofU. Ideas range from direct, defined compensation, to some kind of cut from merchandise sales. Like Arthur Smith in the mid-90s, the current admin is not prepared to go down that road. They feel fully prepared to take the initial steps toward abandoning liable commercial use of Ute names/logos and move towards fully integrating the Red-tailed Hawk as its full-fledged mascot and nickname.

Step one is to abandon the drum and feather logo and replace it with the block U. The university thinks it might be able to hold onto the actual Ute name without legal liability. But, depending on how things shake out they're prepared to drop that as well if it turns into an expensive or annoying PR fight - people would laugh if the government of Ireland suddenly sued Notre Dame. The Utes might not have any more legal standing than the Irish, but they'd get a lot more public sympathy.

Thus, the sabre rattling. Utah is letting word leak that they are prepared and pressing forward with plans to fully transition to the block U. It's a shot across the bow of Cuch and the tribal leaders. The university is telling the tribe that it isn't going to pay any money, and if the issue is pressed the Utes will no longer be represented and honored by the state's flagship public institution.

At this point it's really a matter of how far the tribe is willing to push this. So far it appears as if it is willing to lose its eponymous assocation with the UofU as a matter of economics, and also certain principles that are probably not fully understood outside the tribal culture.

Really, this has been anticipated for a long time, and isn't a huge surprise to anyone up on the hill. If it all goes down as expected, Utah will have fully transitioned to the block U and red-tailed hawk by 2015 and the great "Utah Utes" will be relegated to fan memories and the history books.

[Surfah]

In all seriousness it really sucks that you guys are being pressured to drop the mascot.

[myboynoah]

No other BCS school, off the top of my head.

Yeah, the closest I found was St. Joseph's University.

Hawks gets my vote, but Moose would be kind of cool as well.

[LA Ute]

In all seriousness it really sucks that you guys are being pressured to drop the mascot.

Like shoganai says, none of this is unexpected. It will be too bad if it happens, and I kind of doubt the Ute tribe will insist, because the U. will just walk away and the tribe ends up with nothing to show for the hard bargain it drove - except for some bad PR. Then again, as Shoganai also notes, there may be some tribal values at work that aren't obvious to outsiders.

FWIW, I don't have any inside info, other than a very good source who told me weeks ago that the buzz about the drum and feather was just rumor, which it probably was at that time (early October, I think).