BYU vs Florida State thread

[MarkGrace]

The funny thing is not arguing for Nelson. I'm arguing for honesty when games are evaluated. Junkie and I don't always agree but I respect his opinion because he can break down a game beyond the, "Nelson can't throw accurately for more than ten yards" thing.

You, Grace, and especially MPFunk really aren't doing Heaps any favors by continuing to go after Nelson.

Hold on a second, all I've ever said are things similar to what Junkie and Hot Lunch and guys like that have already said. My observation after watching Nelson once again is that his arm is just flat out terrible. Does he need more time and better performances from his receivers and all of that? Sure, of course that would help. But even with all that, there are things about his throwing ability that are entirely related to him and seriously sub-par. His release isn't quick; the ball doesn't come out with any velocity; he doesn't get a good, tight spin; half the time the ball is wobbling end over end;outside of very basic throws to the middle of the field (and even sometimes on those types of throws) the ball just floats all over; and on the whole his arm strength is just really, really bad. Go on and search the recesses of your brain and tell me when the last time you saw a starting QB at BYU with as bad of an arm/passing ability as Nelson. And no, I'm not buying Doman, because Doman still had a much better arm than Riley.

I know I'm not a huge football guy, and I'm fully willing to admit that there are plenty of people on the board that know more than me, but as I said above, some of those guys have said the exact same things.

Here CJ says Riley has an "awful" arm: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=35
CJ notes that Riley has an "awful" arm part II: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=83
Here he mentions Riley has "no" arm: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...&postcount=109
Junkie says Nelson has a "noodle" for an arm: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=31
The "noodle" is mentioned part II: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=34

And I'm sure you could find about a dozen more of these if you took longer than the 5 seconds I did to look. Let's see what HotLunch has to say.

Hot Lunch says he doesn't think Riley has the arm to be a major college QB: http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread...=nelson&page=3
Hot Lunch mentions that he doesn't think Riley would have started at Utah State because of his arm: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...47&postcount=8
Hot Lunch doesn't think Riley can make plays with his arm: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=38

And again, he's made piles of comments like this over the last year or so if you want to do a little search.

I will backtrack on my comment that every snap he takes is a waste, because obviously he's pretty good with his feet and could be a contributor that way. But, I don't take back any of my comments about his passing ability, because frankly, it is that bad, and everyone sees it except you for some reason. I think it's great that you saw him make throws in high school or whatever, but a serious assessment of his throwing ability to this point in his in college career doesn't lend itself to the conclusion that he has even an adequate arm. I know you have a lot of your reputation invested in the kid at this point, but I think it's time to reconsider what you said you were going to do some time ago: http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=37

[All-American]

Not to mention HEAPS, Apo, Stout, Reynolds, DiLuigi, Pendleton, Rich, Bradley, Logan AUSTIN HOLT, Justin Sorensen, Craig Bills, etc. etc. etc. yeah borrowed time. Maybe stfu until you play Air Force or another real team so we can see whose sky is falling.

How many of those guys have actually done anything on the college level? I wouldn't be citing freshmen who have played two plays at special teams as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities.

[MarkGrace]

However all the mechanics in the world will not get Heaps to the top unless he continues to improve the mental side of the game. I think he will improve but the possibility exists that he easily grasped the high school game but doesn't have the brainpower to truly grasp the far more complex defenses he will see in college.

The possibility always exists, sure. But at this point, there's nothing to suggest that he doesn't have the brainpower to get it, and in fact everything we've heard from the coaches says the opposite. The fact that he's getting to play as a true freshman by itself suggests that he's well ahead of the curve in terms of understanding this stuff. In addition, Bronco has repeatedly mentioned that he's been blown away by his ability to read and understand defenses relative to his age/experience level, and the coaches have mentioned that he's already at the point with this stuff that they'd thought he'd be at as a RS sophomore.

When Doman says the kid is a phenom at the position and Bronco says he's one of the brightest QB prospects he's ever been around, I get the impression they're not only talking about his passing ability but also his understanding of the position.

It could all take a turn for the worse and he might not improve beyond what we've already seen, but I think the chances of that are low and there's reason to be optimistic.

[Commando]

How many of those guys have actually done anything on the college level? I wouldn't be citing freshmen who have played two plays at special teams as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities.

I shouldn't cite BYU's highest rated recruiting class ever as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities?

Good to know.

[LA Ute]

no. In the after-game presser, Kyle was spouting about how you've got to be held accountable. Straight up asshole move that I don't think many coaches, let alone Bronco of all people, would ever make. sorry- Kyle's a bully and an asshole.

Right. Based on one incident 3 seasons ago that he acknowledged was a mistake.

[All-American]

I shouldn't cite BYU's highest rated recruiting class ever as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities?

Good to know.

You shouldn't cite people who have made as many catches, tackles, and points as I have as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities.

[FMCoug]

I shouldn't cite BYU's highest rated recruiting class ever as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities?

Good to know.

Right. And also, the success of the talented guys he inherited is all due to natural talent and has nothing to do with his ability to coach and develop players.

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[Non Sequitur]

I shouldn't cite BYU's highest rated recruiting class ever as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities?

Good to know.

AA makes a fair point. The fact that few of these guys are playing either means that they were over-rated or that Bronco doesn't know how to manage personnel.

[Portland Ute]

Right. And also, the success of the talented guys he inherited is all due to natural talent and has nothing to do with his ability to coach and develop players.

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Nobody disputes that Urban Meyer is a very, very good coach, yet, that's exactly the formula he used at Bowling Green, Utah and then at Florida.

Taking someone else's talent and maximizing it is not a knock. It's an obvious clue that someone is a good coach.

I'm with you, fm.

[Commando]

AA makes a fair point. The fact that few of these guys are playing either means that they were over-rated or that Bronco doesn't know how to manage personnel.

really? as true freshman? Is it normal for true freshmen to sniff p.t. 3 games into their inaugural season at BYU?

fyi a lot of those guys ARE playing.

[All-American]

really? as true freshman? Is it normal for true freshmen to sniff p.t. 3 games into their inaugural season at BYU?

fyi a lot of those guys ARE playing.

True. In fact, I'd almost make the exact opposite point: the more you have true freshman playing, the more reason you have to question the coach's management of personnel. The fact that Jake Heaps is our best option RIGHT NOW is unfortunate.

[Commando]

You shouldn't cite people who have made as many catches, tackles, and points as I have as evidence of Bronco's recruiting capabilities.

I don't know why you're bringing playing time and game time contributions into a discussion about recruiting at all.

Based on all relevant criteria, above all the ability to bring in highly successful, talented, and highly sought-after prep athletes into the program, Bronco is one hell of a recruiter. That's a fact.

[Commando]

True. In fact, I'd almost make the exact opposite point: the more you have true freshman playing, the more reason you have to question the coach's management of personnel. The fact that Jake Heaps is our best option RIGHT NOW is unfortunate.

You'd make that point, but you'd also be changing the subject. Weren't we talking about recruiting to begin with?

[All-American]

I don't know why you're bringing playing time and game time contributions into a discussion about recruiting at all.

Based on all relevant criteria, above all the ability to bring in highly successful, talented, and highly sought-after prep athletes into the program, Bronco is one hell of a recruiter. That's a fact.

With all due respect, Commando, if you can't understand why I would bring up how well a player performs in a discussion about whether the coach is bringing in good players, you should think a little harder about it. On-field performance is an awfully relevant criterion. In fact, I'd argue that there is no more relevant criterion.

[il Padrino Ute]

I don't know why you're bringing playing time and game time contributions into a discussion about recruiting at all.

Based on all relevant criteria, above all the ability to bring in highly successful, talented, and highly sought-after prep athletes into the program, Bronco is one hell of a recruiter. That's a fact.

I would say that a recruiting class should be judged after they graduate, rather than when they sign. Sure, they were studs in high school, but so was pretty much everyone else that is playing Div. I football. When these kids have to face college talent rather than high school talent, we can learn just how good they really are.