The Big 12 expansion groundswell

[KillerDog]

Culture is created. The conglomeration of who is in the conference determines the culture of the conference. That's why the Arizona schools are now said to fit in the Pac culturally. Their culture and the culture of the conference have both changed to make a unified culture. The same happened with the Big 10 and Penn State. I think the best thing that could happen for Utah was to be aligned with the Pac10 schools. I think culturally the Pac is what Utah wants to become and being in the conference with them will help them to become it.

Back to the topic of the thread, my fear regarding BYU's independence has centered around the cultural isolation that such a move will cause to a University and a people that can't afford further social isolationism. On the other hand, without Utah to act as a bridge, the MWC schools and BYU are culturally too disparate (if you want a further explanation on what the gap is I can provide but it is irrelevant to my point here) to coexist. The Big XII, OTOH, has quite a bit in common with BYU from a cultural perspective. They are not identical but they are close enough to make cultural ties possible and form a long lasting conference. Consider that the Big XII consists of large schools in the "fly-over" states that have embraced the "fly-over" nature of their states and rejected those who don't agree with their lifestyle or politics. BYU is perfect from that perspective. They are a religious institution but so is Baylor, and they focus as a school on athletic excellence. The Big XII is a great fit for BYUa and BYU is a great fit for the Big XII. I'm looking forward to seeing how the cultural influences of the Pac 12 and the Big XII affect the cultures of BYU and Utah and therefore the rivalry.

[ERCougar]

Gag...

I thought it was kind of funny...
If I were a Ute fan, lamer road trips would absolutely be my reason for not wanting a PAC 16. I don't see Texas and OU as any tougher roadblocks to the BCS than USC and Oregon.

That said, the PAC 16 is not going go happen. I can't believe people are falling for this again. Texas is not (figuratively) leaving Texas--for freaking football!

Sheez...hasn't FNL taught you anything?

[Viking]

I'll tell you what, big guy. If BYU winds up in a Pac 16 I'll confess judgment to being the windbag and the troll and you being the smart one. If it doesn't happen, then it's the other way around. Deal? Wager?

It has to be something more painful.

Such as a year with some form of new avatar/signature.

I'm sure the board can decide on something far more clever than either one of us can

[Viking]

You're obsessed with this claim that Utah doesn't fit culturally or academically in the PAC. The presidents of the universities think it does, that's probably eating at you. In terms of culture, the U is very much like the more PAC schools. Science and research along with humanities are al available with first class faculty. In addition, our history from the westward expansion in the mid 1800s is a commonality and has left it's mark with a sense of independence and doing things our own way that the U certainly shares with it's fellow PAC 12 institutions.

Geographically the U and Do make sense. Mountains and beautiful cities. You can't argue that with Seattle, LA, Phoenix and Tucson and San Fran as big cities, and Pullman, Eugene, Corvallis, that the combination of big city and outdoorsy geography make boulder and slc perfect fits.

I agree with SU on this. I like the PAC 12 just the way it is. It makes sense and feels right.

The big 12 had it's own brand of culture that doesnt necessarily not fit, but it doesn't fit as well in the PAC.

I don't think anyone could argue that Utah somehow diminishes the powerhouse academic institutions of ASU, WSU and OSU.

[Surfah]

Mack Brown interviewed by Chip after the Rice game:

I asked Mack Brown if he had any reaction to reports that Oklahoma is already making plans to go to the Pac-12, and he said, "I think you should call DeLoss. I've got too much on my plate. I'm trying to get ready for BYU now, and I didn't know if that would be a conference game in the future. So call DeLoss."

[SeattleUte]

I like OU's and Killer's posts. But I don't think BYU has much in common with the Big 12 state schools.

[LA Ute]

CMBF and ox and Viking (and whoever else here is pushing the "Utah is second- or third-rate on many levels" meme) it's pretty clear you haven't spent much time in Salt Lake or around the U of U lately, or done much reading about either place. Over the last 6 years, for a number of personal and business reasons, I have - and that was after 25 years of being focused on work in CA and in Big 12 and Big 10 Country. I've been amazed at how different the U is and how much more grown-up the place has become. (The same can be said, for different reasons, about the Provo-Utah County area.) Anyway, this is a big subject, but I think you are all clinging to some provincial biases that are no longer valid, if they ever were. Besides, if the cultural outlook of the Bay Area is your yardstick, very few places on earth will measure up.

[oxcoug]

CMBF and ox and Viking (and whoever else here is pushing the "Utah is second- or third-rate on many levels" meme) it's pretty clear you haven't spent much time in Salt Lake or around the U of U lately, or done much reading about either place. Over the last 6 years, for a number of personal and business reasons, I have - and that was after 25 years of being focused on work in CA and in Big 12 and Big 10 Country. I've been amazed at how different the U is and how much more grown-up the place has become. (The same can be said, for different reasons, about the Provo-Utah County area.) Anyway, this is a big subject, but I think you are all clinging to some provincial biases that are no longer valid, if they ever were. Besides, if the cultural outlook of the Bay Area is your yardstick, very few places on earth will measure up.

LA Ute I was mostly joking... I've actually been up there with some of your people a number of times in the last decade and I know the U has some great people, great programs and a grown up environment.

[Pheidippides]

CMBF and ox and Viking (and whoever else here is pushing the "Utah is second- or third-rate on many levels" meme) it's pretty clear you haven't spent much time in Salt Lake or around the U of U lately, or done much reading about either place. Over the last 6 years, for a number of personal and business reasons, I have - and that was after 25 years of being focused on work in CA and in Big 12 and Big 10 Country. I've been amazed at how different the U is and how much more grown-up the place has become. (The same can be said, for different reasons, about the Provo-Utah County area.) Anyway, this is a big subject, but I think you are all clinging to some provincial biases that are no longer valid, if they ever were. Besides, if the cultural outlook of the Bay Area is your yardstick, very few places on earth will measure up.

Let me put this in a different context. As a parent with a kid looking at college choices already (no, really!), I can't think of one good reason to suggest the U as a destination. Not one that has to do with something other than Utah's nature, anyway, and UVU would be sufficient for that.

So Utah doesn't even register on my schools to look at as an out of stater. BYU at least has reasons for me to look at things, although I have qualms there.

So if I'm in any way representative of people generally, it is a fair claim to say that Utah is tied very closely to the culture of it's namesake state and is otherwise not noteworthy. It is irrelevant. I'll resist playing the Summon FMCoug card at this point. At least BYU has special relevance, for better or for worse.

On the flipside, I can think of a bunch of reasons to consider a lot of the old PAC-8 schools.

[Moliere]

Let me put this in a different context. As a parent with a kid looking at college choices already (no, really!), I can't think of one good reason to suggest the U as a destination. Not one that has to do with something other than Utah's nature, anyway, and UVU would be sufficient for that.

So Utah doesn't even register on my schools to look at as an out of stater. BYU at least has reasons for me to look at things, although I have qualms there.

So if I'm in any way representative of people generally, it is a fair claim to say that Utah is tied very closely to the culture of it's namesake state and is otherwise not noteworthy. It is irrelevant. I'll resist playing the Summon FMCoug card at this point. At least BYU has special relevance, for better or for worse.

On the flipside, I can think of a bunch of reasons to consider a lot of the old PAC-8 schools.

LA Ute is basically saying "We are now a decent school on par with a lot of other state ran commuter schools!"

[LiveCoug]

"Texas coach Mack Brown on realignment: “We’re in the Big 12 until the end of the year. If that changes, (Tx administrators) will tell me.”

[tooblue]

I like OU's and Killer's posts. But I don't think BYU has much in common with the Big 12 state schools.

SeattleUte, I realize you genuinly enjoy the trolling and think this is all a game of some kind. I'm certain the pleasure you derive from continually denigrating people is representative of insecurities I do not understand. I am truly sorry that you were hurt or marginalized in some way by the LDS church and its culture etc., but your obsession with continually mocking members of the church and BYU fans is unhealthy. You are the single biggest reason I do not participate here on this message board with any regularity. Your desire to be cruel at times frightens me. I regret ever having communicated with you outside of these forums primarily because I do not trust the repercussions of what you might do with my personal information, in your possession, if I crossed you.

I'm not trolling, I'm being honest. I realize many here have learned to appreciate you. Good for them. Good for you.

Why am I writing this post? Because yesterday I had the strangest of text exchanges with Moromon Red Death. He was unusually aggressive about this subject matter in particular. Honestly, I have been paying attention to the developments but not THAT MUCH attention. As a result I felt I had to come here and really read what has been going on. This thread is remarkable and not in a good way.

There are people who are very heavily invested emotionally in all of this. I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing. Part of thinks it's a good thing. I love BYU football and to a much lessor degree—because of my upbringing as a ute—Utah football. At times I have attempted to be cruel with my talk of Utah football but really, I am happy Utah got an invite to the PAC 12. I'm also strangely pleased with BYU as an independent. Though I don't expect it to really happen I would be thrilled to see BYU as a member of the BIG 12.

All of the above being said, these teams, BYU and Utah respectively, are very closely linked to our personal identity and sense of self. If this really is as valuable a community as many have professed it to be then we all should be a little more careful with what we say in regards to this really exciting time for each team and it's fans. Yes, I am didactic. So what. Flame away if you'd like. But holy hell, relax a little and enjoy the season.

[Viking]

CMBF and ox and Viking (and whoever else here is pushing the "Utah is second- or third-rate on many levels" meme) it's pretty clear you haven't spent much time in Salt Lake or around the U of U lately, or done much reading about either place. Over the last 6 years, for a number of personal and business reasons, I have - and that was after 25 years of being focused on work in CA and in Big 12 and Big 10 Country. I've been amazed at how different the U is and how much more grown-up the place has become. (The same can be said, for different reasons, about the Provo-Utah County area.) Anyway, this is a big subject, but I think you are all clinging to some provincial biases that are no longer valid, if they ever were. Besides, if the cultural outlook of the Bay Area is your yardstick, very few places on earth will measure up.

You're right. I'm not from Utah and have spent very little time in Utah post college.

I am certain Utah is better than I give it credit, but given the quality of its grads with which I've worked, it's probably not much better than I think it is. That said, the best investor of our generation is a Utah grad, although he started at BYU

[DU Ute]

SeattleUte, I realize you genuinly enjoy the trolling and think this is all a game of some kind. I'm certain the pleasure you derive from continually denigrating people is representative of insecurities I do not understand. I am truly sorry that you were hurt or marginalized in some way by the LDS church and its culture etc., but your obsession with continually mocking members of the church and BYU fans is unhealthy. You are the single biggest reason I do not participate here on this message board with any regularity. Your desire to be cruel at times frightens me. I regret ever having communicated with you outside of these forums primarily because I do not trust the repercussions of what you might do with my personal information, in your possession, if I crossed you.

I'm not trolling, I'm being honest. I realize many here have learned to appreciate you. Good for them. Good for you.

Why am I writing this post? Because yesterday I had the strangest of text exchanges with Moromon Red Death. He was unusually aggressive about this subject matter in particular. Honestly, I have been paying attention to the developments but not THAT MUCH attention. As a result I felt I had to come here and really read what has been going on. This thread is remarkable and not in a good way.

There are people who are very heavily invested emotionally in all of this. I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing. Part of thinks it's a good thing. I love BYU football and to a much lessor degree—because of my upbringing as a ute—Utah football. At times I have attempted to be cruel with my talk of Utah football but really, I am happy Utah got an invite to the PAC 12. I'm also strangely pleased with BYU as an independent. Though I don't expect it to really happen I would be thrilled to see BYU as a member of the BIG 12.

All of the above being said, these teams, BYU and Utah respectively, are very closely linked to our personal identity and sense of self. If this really is as valuable a community as many have professed it to be then we all should be a little more careful with what we say in regards to this really exciting time for each team and it's fans. Yes, I am didactic. So what. Flame away if you'd like. But holy hell, relax a little and enjoy the season.

Thanks, SU!

[shoganai]

-The Pac-12/16 is prepared to offer to permanently hold the conference championship game in the Phoenix area as a concession to get the Arizona schools to support the speculated realignment.

-There are whispers that adding BYU could be seen as a concession to both Utah, and Texas. Why Texas? Because the real issue at play here is the LHN. In exchange for having to scrap the LHN, the Pac-12 could make the Utah/CU regional channel into a three-team deal with BYU, give the Oklahoma schools their own regional channel, leaving Texas to have its own regional lonestar channel without having to share it with anybody...

-...However, this only works if Texas Tech is not brought on board, and with the legislature threatening to get involved, it's looking less likely that Texas will be able to do this without another state school involved.

-ESPN would rather see Texas go independent than join the Pac-16, but it's unclear how much sway they have in this case. And, of course, it's unclear if the Pac-12 would expand at all without UT.