The Big 12 expansion groundswell

[SeattleUte]

Wow. Shot birds flutter.

Et tu Brute?

[creekster]

The fact that you automatically swallow the BS that BYU rejected a Big 12 invitation is really disappointing. I always regarded you as a healthy skeptic. THERE IS NO EVIDNECE BYU RECEIVED ANY OFFER. SOONER, CARDIAC, WOOT, HELP ME OUT HERE.

Also, no one will know whether the sweeping conclusions you draw in your first paragraph are accurate for perhaps 5-7 years at least. Shall we conclude that USC can't compete in the Pac 12 based on this season?

It turns out you're just like the idiot masses on CB. A pod person. I feel like I'm in that chilling scene in the Stepford Wives. You've really lost it over this Utah to the Pac 12, BYU to irrelevance turn of events. Shame on you.

Will you please stop being such a putz about this?

[lambdacoug]

The fact that you automatically swallow the BS that BYU rejected a Big 12 invitation is really disappointing. I always regarded you as a healthy skeptic. THERE IS NO EVIDNECE BYU RECEIVED ANY OFFER. SOONER, CARDIAC, WOOT, HELP ME OUT HERE.

Also, no one will know whether the sweeping conclusions you draw in your first paragraph are accurate for perhaps 5-7 years at least. Shall we conclude that USC can't compete in the Pac 12 based on this season?

It turns out you're just like the idiot masses on CB. A pod person. I feel like I'm in that chilling scene in the Stepford Wives. You've really lost it over this Utah to the Pac 12, BYU to irrelevance turn of events. Shame on you.

Just as there is no direct evidence that BYU received an invite, there is also no direct evidence that it has turned down an invite either. We basically have the same direct evidence we did 3 months ago, nothing, for either side. Its why I'm calming down quite a bit. We just don't have evidence one way or another, so getting worked up is just an exercise in futility based on wishful thinking.

[TripletDaddy]

Will you please stop being such a putz about this?

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

HFN, if I were to dig into the numbers, would I find that the games against the top cometition were the ones sold out and the games not sold out were against inferior competition?

I don't know how to answer your question BYU went 11-2 in 2006 the first year they average 100% capacity for a season since 1999 the home schedule was Tulsa, Utah State, Wyoming, San Diego State, UNLV, New Mexico.

If you look at 2004, the games that inflated attendance numbers were Notre Dame and USC.

Seriously, you should stop thinking before you hurt yourself. You are comparing apples to oranges and pulling numbers out of your ass. Where did you get that there was any plan to increase capacity as LES, let alone by 50%?

In case you haven't noticed, the landscape of college football has changed *significantly* since the 80s. I know this may have slipped past you, but you really should pay attention.

You also are comparing "WAC or sub-WAC" teams to Big 12 teams. That comparison is just silly. Losing to a WAC team and losing to a Big 12 team are different things, entirely. Beating a WAC team and beating a Big 12 team are also different things. If we lose to Big 12 teams, you will not see attendance drop sharply, if we lose to WAC teams you will. If we win against Big 12 teams, it will be a great boon to attendance, beating a WAC team is business as usual.

Stop shooting/hoping for mediocrity because it fills the stadium. Such a stupid hope. Do you really want to not compete against the best teams possible? Oh right, you don't because attendance might drop, my bad... What kind of mentality is that? You completely ignore the downside of independence while talking about the downside of a Big 12 invite. Seriously...

Feel free to direct me to where I suggest this is my desire for Brigham Young University football. I am part of the small percentage of fans that are there regardless of record of the team, it appears that you are as well. Congrats!

I am providing one explanation for why those that count the money for BYU are more interested in assuring 9+ wins against inferior competition as opposed to risking potential losing and lost revenue against better competition.

[il Padrino Ute]

To be clear, Im not saying that fans shouldnt be thrilled. Of course they should. Heck, I am excited because I will get to see SC every other year here in utah. It is great, no doubt.

My point is that HFN is correct...winning will drive things over the long haul, not conference affiliation. Attendance is almost always a greater function of winning than opponent. There are exceptions, of course, but in general, which is the tougher ticket to get...a home team that is undefeated or a lousy home team playing a ranked visiting team?

Most BCS schools do not sell out their home schedule. This means that after awhile, yes, it is less exciting playing Oregon or Michigan or whatever marquee team happens to be in your conference. It is no longer a novelty.

Winning never loses its luster, however.

I definitely agree that winning is always better. But if alleged fans are such wusses that they won't go to a game because of some losses, I say "don't let the door hit you on your way out!"

[falafel]

What was that armor meant to protect against? It is supposed to be armor, right? Storm troopers seemed to die with one hit from a laser, just like everyone else.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I think BYU could compete in basketball in the Big 12. BYU won't dominate the conference to the same extent it did in the MWC, but BYU played quite well in a decent basketball conference. The runaway success that BYU saw in ticket and merch sales this season could continue to a certain extent even without Jimmer if BYU were in the Big 12.

Also, I remember my freshman year at BYU -- 1995. BYU went something like 7-5 and no one cared about the team. But when Utah came to LES (Cougar Stadium still at that point), the place was packed. The same couldn't be said when it was some of the other schools. in the middle of the season. When BYU drops some of its early games against really good opponents, it's hard for people to get excited about SDSU and New Mexico. I think that would change if the opponent in the middle of the season were Texas, OU or even schools like Missouri and K-State. I think recruiting would improve to the point that BYU's worst seasons would be 6-6 type years after dumbing down the non-conference schedule. Once in awhile we would still have 10-2 type years.

[YOhio]

What gap, though? Utah is awful this season, be it due to injuries or otherwise. Expectations were high that this was the season to jump....no Farm, no Zeros....SC on SanCtions. Right now the Ute fanbase is hoping for bowl eligibility. There is also siginificant pressure on the Utes here in the state. It was a no brainer to make the jump but losing seasons will only reinforce the notion that theirs was a last-ditch invite, not a meritorious one. Hypothetically speaking, let's say Utah struggles similarly next season. You will hear less and less of this "we are just so happy to be here" nonsense.

BYU is facing pressure of its own, but for different reasons. The most recent decision to eschew the B12 invite is puzzling, to put it politely. There is unprecedented pressure on the school to show donors and fans alike wtf the plan is for the next 5 or so years. Current trends in home scheduling will not cut it, even if this current team does wind up winning 9 or so games (still very possible given the schedule).

This is a unique time in Utah. Both schools are facing new pressure never before seen along the Wasatch.

This much we know. In Utah's worst season since Ron McBride was fired, they beat us by 44 points. As LAU and others are quick to remind us, Utah has beat BYU 7 out of the 10 times and they've won two BCS bowl games in that period of time. Any objective observer will tell you that Utah has a better football program than BYU. With our refusal to improve our standing in the CFB world, I don't see that changing. Especially if Utah starts to pick off the best local recruits.

Yes. BYU is facing a unique pressure and they have a very pissed off fan base. I think it's also safe to assume that there are two head coaches in the department that are livid at those above them. When the most visible Kool-Aid drinker in Provo, Bronco Mendenhall, is violating marching orders and advocating membership in a BCS conference, it's clear that all is not well in the SAB. Based purely on speculation, rumor and innuendo, Dave Rose, one of the hottest coaching commodities in CBB, isn't happy with a long-term WCC solution. Can BYU prove everybody wrong and demonstrate that Independence/WCC is a better solution than the Big 12? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

[splitbamboo]

no I am basing it on the following:


2. The 3-5 years of schedules look horrible and recent efforts to schedule have yielded results wich are significantly below expectations even with fellow independent ND. Weber State in the first half of the season? really?

I see this as BYU trying to be like the big boys. The first couple games of the season with cupcakes for the easy win.

I think Ole Miss made a mistake playing BYU the first of the season. Do you think we'll ever see a LSU - OU early game again?

I don't see an annual Weber-like first or second game as a real issue.

I would like to see a much stronger independent schedule, though...

[byu71]

I wonder what games are best attended by BYU fans on the road. Games against really good competition or games against teams we have a sure win coming.

I think I know the answer, but I don't know for sure.

[Flystripper]

I don't know how to answer your question BYU went 11-2 in 2006 the first year they average 100% capacity for a season since 1999 the home schedule was Tulsa, Utah State, Wyoming, San Diego State, UNLV, New Mexico.

If you look at 2004, the games that inflated attendance numbers were Notre Dame and USC.



Feel free to direct me to where I suggest this is my desire for Brigham Young University football. I am part of the small percentage of fans that are there regardless of record of the team, it appears that you are as well. Congrats!

I am providing one explanation for why those that count the money for BYU are more interested in assuring 9+ wins against inferior competition as opposed to risking potential losing and lost revenue against better competition.

TV revenue in the Big 12 would likely dwarf lost stadium revenue due to Big 12losses. I doubt it is a money issue. If anything it is just supports that BYU never had an offer. Discussions with the Big12? Yes. Offer? Probably not.

[YOhio]

I am part of the small percentage of fans that are there regardless of record of the team, it appears that you are as well. Congrats!

That's very noble of you. You're like a polygamous husband that still keeps his ugly first wife around even after he married the hot 20-year old.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

This much we know. In Utah's worst season since Ron McBride was fired, they beat us by 44 points. As LAU and others are quick to remind us, Utah has beat BYU 7 out of the 10 times and they've won two BCS bowl games in that period of time. Any objective observer will tell you that Utah has a better football program than BYU. With our refusal to improve our standing in the CFB world, I don't see that changing. Especially if Utah starts to pick off the best local recruits.

Yes. BYU is facing a unique pressure and they have a very pissed off fan base. I think it's also safe to assume that there are two head coaches in the department that are livid at those above them. When the most visible Kool-Aid drinker in Provo, Bronco Mendenhall, is violating marching orders and advocating membership in a BCS conference, it's clear that all is not well in the SAB. Based purely on speculation, rumor and innuendo, Dave Rose, one of the hottest coaching commodities in CBB, isn't happy with a long-term WCC solution. Can BYU prove everybody wrong and demonstrate that Independence/WCC is a better solution than the Big 12? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

This is going to start happening more and more.

[TripletDaddy]

I definitely agree that winning is always better. But if alleged fans are such wusses that they won't go to a game because of some losses, I say "don't let the door hit you on your way out!"

As do I. However, this message board is not an average cross cut of your typical fan base. We are, by definition, much more invested in the respective teams. I don't doubt for a second that you would go to all the games you could attend.

But there is a significant portion of every fan base that attends when teams win, not so much when they lose. And you will see the market react to that. Without winning, you aren't going to be hearing as much of the "we are in, that is all that matters..." tripe. And in acknowledging that, we are acknowledging that being in never was what mattered to begin with. The current excitement level among Utes is not the association itself....it is the opportunity to win on the larger stage that the association provides. Previously that opportunity was not available. Merely being associated isn't what is driving the enthusiasm. Some Utes may think that is the root of the excitement, but it really isn't. Which is why losing will quickly lead to lost enthusiasm and lower attendance. This happens at every school, regardless of conference affiliation.

The only school I would exempt from this would be Nebraska. They seem to attend every single home and away game regardless of how the team does.