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  • Originally posted by ByronMarchant View Post
    What happens if two men hold hands and kiss at Lavell Edwards Stadium? Any idea? Nothing? How do fans respond? Any volunteers to test this?

    How many gay kisses until the Orange Shirts escort the gay couple out of the stadium?
    Ha. I think you raise some interesting points elsewhere, but I think it's possible that BYU would be one of the better football stadiums in America for two members of the same sex to kiss. Sure they may get scolded or stared at, but the perpetrators are uptight, passive aggressive and sober. I doubt they'd be so kind in SEC territory and certain that drunk NFL fans would be much worse.

    My biggest annoyance with all if this is that not everything has to be about gays or identity politics. It really doesn't. People can play sports with those of different beliefs and cultures and build friendships, camaraderie and healthy rivalries. It's what happens every four years in the Olympics.

    That aside, in this effort the LGBTQ chose to take an easy shot at BYU that's more punitive and vindictive than effective. At it's best, this letter will exclude BYU from the Big 12 and BYU athletics will continue on as normal. It will create significant resentment amongst the tens of thousands of BYU fans, many of whom would be their allies, that want nothing more than a P5 invite but it does little to incentivize the administration to really change.

    This is way off-topic, but it reminds me of the brilliant Andrew Sullivan essay on Trump and why this effort really irritates me:

    This is an age in which a woman might succeed a black man as president, but also one in which a member of the white working class has declining options to make a decent living. This is a time when gay people can be married in 50 states, even as working-class families are hanging by a thread. It’s a period in which we have become far more aware of the historic injustices that still haunt African-Americans and yet we treat the desperate plight of today’s white working *class as an afterthought. And so late-stage capitalism is creating a righteous, revolutionary anger that late-stage democracy has precious little ability to moderate or constrain — and has actually helped exacerbate.

    For the white working class, having had their morals roundly mocked, their religion deemed primitive, and their economic prospects decimated, now find their very gender and race, indeed the very way they talk about reality, described as a kind of problem for the nation to overcome. This is just one aspect of what Trump has masterfully signaled as “political correctness” run amok, or what might be better described as the newly rigid progressive passion for racial and sexual equality of outcome, rather than the liberal aspiration to mere equality of opportunity.

    Much of the newly energized left has come to see the white working class not as allies but primarily as bigots, misogynists, racists, and homophobes, thereby condemning those often at the near-bottom rung of the economy to the bottom rung of the culture as well. A struggling white man in the heartland is now told to “check his privilege” by students at Ivy League colleges. Even if you agree that the privilege exists, it’s hard not to empathize with the object of this disdain. These working-class communities, already alienated, hear — how can they not? — the glib and easy dismissals of “white straight men” as the ultimate source of all our woes. They smell the condescension and the broad generalizations about them — all of which would be repellent if directed at racial minorities — and see themselves, in Hoffer’s words, “disinherited and injured by an unjust order of things.”

    And so they wait, and they steam, and they lash out. This was part of the emotional force of the tea party: not just the advancement of racial minorities, gays, and women but the simultaneous demonization of the white working-class world, its culture and way of life. Obama never intended this, but he became a symbol to many of this cultural marginalization. The Black Lives Matter left stoked the fires still further; so did the gay left, for whom the word magnanimity seems unknown, even in the wake of stunning successes. And as the tea party swept through Washington in 2010, as its representatives repeatedly held the government budget hostage, threatened the very credit of the U.S., and refused to hold hearings on a Supreme Court nominee, the American political and media Establishment mostly chose to interpret such behavior as something other than unprecedented. But Trump saw what others didn’t, just as Hoffer noted: “The frustrated individual and the true believer make better prognosticators than those who have reason to want the preservation of the status quo.”
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ald-trump.html

    There are a lot of differences between the situation at BYU and the phenomenon described by Sullivan, but there's a lot to learn from what he's saying.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BlueK View Post
      I'm answering every point you're making and then you change the subject.
      The subject is discrimination in its various forms.

      No one is questioning whether BYU has the legal right to treat gays differently.

      But people are willfully blind here.

      Can gay BYU students kiss and hold hands? No

      Can gay BYU students get married even though they have a legal right to do so? Not without getting kicked out of school.

      Can gay visitors express affection (e.g., kissing or holding hands) in Lavell Edwards Stadium? Maybe. Maybe not.

      But don't tell me that BYU is just "being who they are" unless you think this stuff should never change.

      BYU is a huge anomaly among large national universities. There is no value to treating gays differently from others.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by YOhio View Post
        Ha. I think you raise some interesting points elsewhere, but I think it's possible that BYU would be one of the better football stadiums in America for two members of the same sex to kiss. Sure they may get scolded or stared at, but the perpetrators are uptight, passive aggressive and sober. I doubt they'd be so kind in SEC territory and certain that drunk NFL fans would be much worse.
        How dare you imply that drunk NFL fans could possibly be more mean to "outsiders" than BYU fans!!!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ByronMarchant View Post
          40 years ago when BYU and the church discriminated against blacks, were Mormons just "being who they are?"
          Interracial marriage was illegal up until Loving v. Virginia so it was more than just Mormons "being who they are?" Maybe if you examined the history of the state you live in you will conclude that you need to move.
          "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
          "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
          "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
          GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ByronMarchant View Post
            The subject is discrimination in its various forms.

            No one is questioning whether BYU has the legal right to treat gays differently.

            But people are willfully blind here.

            Can gay BYU students kiss and hold hands? No

            Can gay BYU students get married even though they have a legal right to do so? Not without getting kicked out of school.

            Can gay visitors express affection (e.g., kissing or holding hands) in Lavell Edwards Stadium? Maybe. Maybe not.

            But don't tell me that BYU is just "being who they are" unless you think this stuff should never change.

            BYU is a huge anomaly among large national universities. There is no value to treating gays differently from others.
            I'm perfectly aware of all of this stuff. I'm actually personally much closer to agreement with you on many of these points than you would ever want to believe or accept. The difference is I've come to different conclusions about my beliefs than you have, and I think you have a problem with that.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ByronMarchant View Post
              The subject is discrimination in its various forms.

              No one is questioning whether BYU has the legal right to treat gays differently.

              But people are willfully blind here.

              Can gay BYU students kiss and hold hands? No

              Can gay BYU students get married even though they have a legal right to do so? Not without getting kicked out of school.

              Can gay visitors express affection (e.g., kissing or holding hands) in Lavell Edwards Stadium? Maybe. Maybe not.

              But don't tell me that BYU is just "being who they are" unless you think this stuff should never change.

              BYU is a huge anomaly among large national universities. There is no value to treating gays differently from others.
              Can gay BYU students stop paying tithing so their money doesn't go to fund BYU? NO! In fact, they are forced to pay double the amount.

              Can gay BYU students transfer to a different school? Hell NO! They must stay at BYU. (Background music: "Hotel California" by the Eagles.)

              Can gay fans watch BYU sporting events on TV? NO! Lightning will strike them dead on the spot if they try.
              "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
              "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
              "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
              GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lambdacoug View Post
                Is it possible that someone that is LGBTQ might feel legitimately threatened when visiting a place like BYU if they don't have an understanding of LDS policies? I don't think it is a stretch.
                It seems to me that the line about making sure "that LGBT athletes, coaches and administrators are safe and protected at an event or institution" refers both to potential harassment of visiting teams/fans/etc., and also to the environment experienced by the byu's own LGBT athletes, coaches and administrators.

                And if the byu wants to say it doesn't have any LGBT athletes, coaches and administrators, then maybe they can play against all Iranian teams.
                "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
                -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

                Comment


                • Tramel thinks the Big-12 isn't planning on adding any teams.

                  http://m.newsok.com/are-the-big-12-p...rticle/5513165

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by YOhio View Post
                    Ha. I think you raise some interesting points elsewhere, but I think it's possible that BYU would be one of the better football stadiums in America for two members of the same sex to kiss. Sure they may get scolded or stared at, but the perpetrators are uptight, passive aggressive and sober. I doubt they'd be so kind in SEC territory and certain that drunk NFL fans would be much worse.

                    My biggest annoyance with all if this is that not everything has to be about gays or identity politics. It really doesn't. People can play sports with those of different beliefs and cultures and build friendships, camaraderie and healthy rivalries. It's what happens every four years in the Olympics.

                    That aside, in this effort the LGBTQ chose to take an easy shot at BYU that's more punitive and vindictive than effective. At it's best, this letter will exclude BYU from the Big 12 and BYU athletics will continue on as normal. It will create significant resentment amongst the tens of thousands of BYU fans, many of whom would be their allies, that want nothing more than a P5 invite but it does little to incentivize the administration to really change.

                    This is way off-topic, but it reminds me of the brilliant Andrew Sullivan essay on Trump and why this effort really irritates me:


                    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ald-trump.html

                    There are a lot of differences between the situation at BYU and the phenomenon described by Sullivan, but there's a lot to learn from what he's saying.
                    Great post.

                    BTW, study the origins of political correctness if you haven't already. This vid is a very nice intro to it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by USUC View Post
                      Tramel thinks the Big-12 isn't planning on adding any teams.

                      http://m.newsok.com/are-the-big-12-p...rticle/5513165
                      Interesting speculation. But I find it hard to believe the B12 is capable of that much planning and coordination to do what he's suggesting they're doing.
                      Last edited by BlueK; 08-10-2016, 09:09 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by USUC View Post
                        Tramel thinks the Big-12 isn't planning on adding any teams.

                        http://m.newsok.com/are-the-big-12-p...rticle/5513165

                        Maybe the Big 12 was playing poker but Fox and ESPN called their bluff?
                        "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                        "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                        "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                        GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                        Comment


                        • I have a hunch that we will get an answer to the question of gays making out in LES in the very near future. I'm sure a gay couple or two (or more) will hit a game and engage in all manner of PDA just to see what happens and to annoy the faithful.

                          Comment


                          • I'm gratified that this thread has devolved to discussion of what I've been saying for years is the real problem. Swish!
                            When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                            --Jonathan Swift

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lambdacoug View Post
                              Is it possible that someone that is LGBTQ might feel legitimately threatened when visiting a place like BYU if they don't have an understanding of LDS policies? I don't think it is a stretch.
                              Weird, if I said, "Is it possible that someone that is white might feel legitimately threatened when visiting a place like Compton if they don't have an understanding of Black culture? I don't think it is a stretch." I'd be called a racist.
                              Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                              For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                              Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Shaka View Post
                                I have a hunch that we will get an answer to the question of gays making out in LES in the very near future. I'm sure a gay couple or two (or more) will hit a game and engage in all manner of PDA just to see what happens and to annoy the faithful.
                                Yeah that's a bad move. They may annoy the faithful but also offend the wrong redneck.
                                "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

                                Comment

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