The Big 12 expansion groundswell

[Shaka]

I agree with what PK said this morning. This is a blip. The B12 will follow the money.

[Clark Addison]

Over the next ten years, the church's stance on the LGBT issues will lead to some huge fights that will significantly impact BYU. Just wait until schools start to boycott playing BYU, then there will be calls for BYU to lose its accreditation, followed by discussions about whether the church should be able to maintain its tax exempt status. Unlike the priesthood ban, this is a battle the church is willing to fight to the death. It is going to get very, very ugly.

I may be letting my hopes control my expectations, but I doubt it will be that extreme. There will definitely be fights and conflict, but I think (hope?) they will not get worse and worse. Look at the differences in how the Church treats and talks about these issues today vs. 20 years ago. It has already changed tremendously (though still woefully out of line in many areas). As more of the older generation die away, this will continue to evolve. I think the church will continue to be out of step to some degree with society at large, but the gap will slowly close.

[Moliere]

Over the next ten years, the church's stance on the LGBT issues will lead to some huge fights that will significantly impact BYU. Just wait until schools start to boycott playing BYU, then there will be calls for BYU to lose its accreditation, followed by discussions about whether the church should be able to maintain its tax exempt status. Unlike the priesthood ban, this is a battle the church is willing to fight to the death. It is going to get very, very ugly.

The best thing for BYU's progress towards being more inclusive of gays would be for it to get into the Big12. If BYU is excluded because of this, it's the final nail in the P5 coffin. If BYU gets in, 10 years down the road the political pressure will build after some incident on BYU's campus and the university will be forced into the public spotlight more than ever before. The church will cave in many areas and everyone will just move forward.

The young people of the church are much, much less anti-gay than the older generation. Many of them are for inclusion of gays in many regards, including legally married gay couples being considered in compliance with the law of chastity.


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[Uncle Ted]

I agree with what PK said this morning. This is a blip. The B12 will follow the money.

Yeah, it is a blip. Schools like Baylor and ND are in the top 20 most LGBT unfriendly as well. So is the Big 12 going to kick out Baylor and forbid scheduling anything with ND? Not any time in the near future. Although I don't have any problem with the Big 12 not scheduling anything with aTm who is also on the list.

[byu71]

Can't America do anything without it being some political shit show? The LGBTQ's want to go after BYU's federal funding? Fine. Go ahead. But leave athletics the hell alone. It's a damn good way to piss off Mormons who are sympathetic to their cause. Namely me. Also, we give them tunnels to sing in for a safe space and that was totally ignored in those letters.

I was thinking on the way in if the LGBTQ community or should I say the activists in the community have enough clout to keep BYU out of the BIG 12, what is next.

How about boycotting any companies that hire BYU graduates?

I don't think the churches position is a hateful position. I don't think the vast majority of mormons hate gays or would go as far as to not associate or provide services to gays. I do think there are some hateful bigotted members who would use the churches position as cover for their hateful positions, but I think you would find hateful bigots even in the atheist community.

I am not pissed off at the LGBTQ community over this, but it does make me think the activists can go F themselves.

[lambdacoug]

Yeah, it is a blip. Schools like Baylor and ND are in the top 20 most LGBT unfriendly as well. So is the Big 12 going to kick out Baylor and forbid scheduling anything with ND? Not any time in the near future. Although I don't have any problem with the Big 12 not scheduling anything with aTm who is also on the list.

There is a bit of difference between kicking a team out and inviting one in.

[lambdacoug]

I don't think the church's position is a hateful position. I don't think the vast majority of mormons hate gays or would go as far as to not associate or provide services to gays.

Of course you don't, but whether you think it is hateful or not, doesn't change whether it is or not. The gay mormon kid that was my daughter's friend and killed himself certainly thought differently. Thankfully, there is a vast difference between the church's position and the way members treat people in the LGBTQ community.

[Green Monstah]

I agree with what PK said this morning. This is a blip. The B12 will follow the money.

If by blip, he means it won't change the status quo, then I agree.

[Uncle Ted]

There is a bit of difference between kicking a team out and inviting one in.

Let me know when the liberal PAC-X schools start refusing to play ND in any sport. That seems like it would be easy for them to do.

As for inviting BYU it is not like their are a lot of good candidates out their besides them... Also, it is not like the Big 12 doesn't have any religious fruit cake schools already. Hell, Baylor didn't even allow dancing until the 90's.

[BigFatMeanie]

Of course you don't, but whether you think it is hateful or not, doesn't change whether it is or not. The gay mormon kid that was my daughter's friend and killed himself certainly thought differently. Thankfully, there is a vast difference between the church's position and the way members treat people in the LGBTQ community.

LOL. As if the definition of "hateful" is some objective standard that exists independently of what people collectively define as hateful; and you are somehow the arbiter of this Platonic ideal of hateful-ism with your anecdotes of regrettable incidents.

[Omaha 680]

Maybe, social norms and mores change over time. Inevitably, the younger generations are more comfortable with the changes than the older generations. This isn't a new phenomenon. I'm sure the student body cares a great deal less about sexual orientation than the administration, but it isn't the student body that sets the policies that will get a gay couple kicked out for PDAs/NCMOs (or even CMOs).

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that but that wasn't my question. You said what those gay BYU students were saying in the video was bullshit. I found them very sincere. And that video wasn't produced by BYU to make BYU look good. It was an honest (if hopeful) look at the struggles gay BYU students face.

[lambdacoug]

LOL. As if the definition of "hateful" is some objective standard that exists independently of what people collectively define as hateful; and you are somehow the arbiter of this Platonic ideal of hateful-ism with your anecdotes of regrettable incidents.

So it's ok for someone to say they don't think the policies are hateful, but not so ok to point out that that has no bearing on whether they actually are hateful?

Yeah, it's an anecdote, but one that hit close to home and was a big deal in the local stake as he was a universally loved kid of a well known family.

[Copelius]

Can't America do anything without it being some political shit show? The LGBTQ's want to go after BYU's federal funding? Fine. Go ahead. But leave athletics the hell alone. It's a damn good way to piss off Mormons who are sympathetic to their cause. Namely me. Also, we give them tunnels to sing in for a safe space and that was totally ignored in those letters.

[Bo Diddley]

So it's ok for someone to say they don't think the policies are hateful, but not so ok to point out that that has no bearing on whether they actually are hateful?

Yeah, it's an anecdote, but one that hit close to home and was a big deal in the local stake as he was a universally loved kid of a well known family.

So are you saying the policies are hateful? It's easy to poke holes without taking a stance.

My anecdotal evidence is this: the LGBT community's actions towards my alma mater is hateful.

[Eddie]

Of course you don't, but whether you think it is hateful or not, doesn't change whether it is or not. The gay mormon kid that was my daughter's friend and killed himself certainly thought differently. Thankfully, there is a vast difference between the church's position and the way members treat people in the LGBTQ community.

I don't say this to devalue your daughter's friend who killed himself. That is a tragedy. And one that has been repeated way too often.

Gay Mormon kids are not the only gay kids killing themselves. While being LGBT has gained more and more acceptance overall, there are still issues of acceptance faced by more than just Mormon kids. This is a serious issue, to be sure. But it is not exclusively a Mormon issue. And while the Mormon leadership and community certainly must continue to make inroads and continue to better support LGTB individuals and families with LGTB members, there is much more to it than simply what the Mormons are doing (or not doing).