President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[Commando]

I'm probably a racist. I believe that the whitey should pay reparations to the decedents of the Native Americans and then get the hell off our lands!

I... can't argue with you there (the second part.)

[frank ryan]

Trump is used to "investing" in cool expensive stuff, and if it doesn't work out you can always declare bankruptcy and just not pay it back. I'm not sure he understands that the federal government doesn't exactly work that way - though I'm sure he also understands that he himself will never be held accountable for the debt.



I know I'm probably a racist too - but I got the impression that the meme Ted used wasn't about Black men. It was about that particular politician being "simple, unintelligent, under developed...etc."

Again - I know I'm probably racist. At least, I figure someone is going to tell me I am and I just don't know that there is any effective defense once that claim has been brought up. But if we really are getting to a place that you can't criticize or call people dumb if they are a minority because it's racist...well...that's just sad.

The meme is based in large part on Al Greene's looks. They are saying he looks like a caveman. There's racial component to that. The meme started in some uglier corners of Trump fandom. It's not a case of hypersensitivity, although I can see how you might think that.

[UVACoug]

First, I’m actually quoting the Supreme Court opinion. You’re quoting the DOJ website. I don’t see “broader” in the quotation from the Supreme Court. Nevertheless, the Supreme Court’s “effort to accomplish the evil purpose” formulation, you seem to recognize, is more than, a more rigorous standard, than “attempt.” Effort is not synonymous with attempt in common English usage. That should end our debate.

As for what is meant on that website by “broader”, it seems to be saying that “attempt” is a word that actually appears in other criminal statutes and is a defined term that opinions have dealt with, and the Supreme Court didn’t want those definitions and opinions to confuse the meaning of this statute. The Court wanted to get out from under those definitions and opinions.

In the present case, however, the crime of indictment, former § 1510, proscribed only “endeavoring” to obstruct communication, while the crime of conviction, § 1512, proscribed “attempting” to obstruct communication. The operative question is whether the term “endeavor” means the same thing as “attempt.” We have found no cases interpreting the term “endeavor” as used in § 1510. Several cases, however, have focused on this issue with respect to 18 U.S.C. § 1503, a parallel provision with nearly identical wording which proscribes obstructing justice through influencing or injuring any officer, juror or witness.13 These cases conclude that an “endeavor” is something less than an “attempt.” In United States v. Russell, 255 U.S. 138, 143, 41 S.Ct. 260, 261, 65 L.Ed. 553 (1921), the Court explained, with reference to the predecessor statute to 18 U.S.C. § 1503, that “[t]he word of the section is ‘endeavor,’ and by using it the section got rid of the technicalities which might be urged as besetting the word ‘attempt,’ and it describes any effort or essay to accomplish the evil purpose that the section was enacted to prevent.” Accord United States v. Buffalano, 727 F.2d 50, 53 (2d Cir.1984) (“The conclusion is that an ‘endeavor’ under § 1503 does not require proof that would support a charge of attempt, i.e., an ‘endeavor’ is less than an attempt.”); United States v. Barton, 647 F.2d 224, 240 (2d Cir.) (“The use of the term ‘endeavor[ ]’ in [18 U.S.C. § 1503] and its predecessor has been interpreted as embodying a concept less technical than that normally associated with an ‘attempt.’ ”), cert. denied, 454 U.S. 857, 102 S.Ct. 307, 70 L.Ed.2d 152 (1981); United States v. Tedesco, 635 F.2d 902, 907 (1st Cir.1980) (“ ‘endeavor’ connotes a somewhat lower threshold of purposeful activity than ‘attempt’ ”), cert. denied, *1367 452 U.S. 962, 101 S.Ct. 3112, 69 L.Ed.2d 974 (1981); United States v. Lazzerini, 611 F.2d 940, 941 (1st Cir.1979) (same); United States v. Fasolino, 586 F.2d 939, 940 (2d Cir.1978) (endeavor “does not require proof that would support a charge of attempt”).

United States v. Leisure, 844 F.2d 1347, 1366–67 (8th Cir. 1988)

[Uncle Ted]

I... can't argue with you there (the second part.)

Good... send the check now and don't let gate hit you in the butt on the way off of our property.

[SeattleUte]

United States v. Leisure, 844 F.2d 1347, 1366–67 (8th Cir. 1988)

it appears that the Eighth, First and Second circuits agree with you. I don't see that the Supreme Court does.

In any event, linked here is a handy list of possible obstruction of justice that the mainstream press--hostile to Trump--has gleaned from the Mueller report. Sorry. We may have different values. But I don't want a country where asking your lawyer to take action that the lawyer decides is ill advised and doesn't do, or trying to persuade a government official (who is the most powerful lawyer in the country and the individual trying to persuade is a lay person) or sending encouragement to former colleagues under criminal investigation or the president firing the FBI director--as he is legally entitled to do--especially one as venal and duplicitous as Comey (every democrat should agree with me about Comey's low character; he may have cost Hilary, for whom I voted, the election) is obstruction of justice. This is especially true where there was no underlying crime and the investigation was so demonstrably fueled by political motivation and animus.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obstruc...ueller-report/

[SeattleUte]

I know I'm probably a racist too - but I got the impression that the meme Ted used wasn't about Black men. It was about that particular politician being "simple, unintelligent, under developed...etc."

Again - I know I'm probably racist. At least, I figure someone is going to tell me I am and I just don't know that there is any effective defense once that claim has been brought up. But if we really are getting to a place that you can't criticize or call people dumb if they are a minority because it's racist...well...that's just sad.

Certainly questioning whether an allegedly racist meme which the speaker did not even post or expressing skepticism that the intent was racist should not be called racist.

The reason that cave man doesn't work as a racist meme, and has never been one (to my knowledge, and this has discussion has prompted me to look for it), is that cave men were fully evolved humans. We're all still cave men, but with fancier gadgets and a different form of written expression.

[UVACoug]

it appears that the Eighth, First and Second circuits agree with you. I don't see that the Supreme Court does.

In any event, linked here is a handy list of possible obstruction of justice that the mainstream press--hostile to Trump--has gleaned from the Mueller report. Sorry. We may have different values. But I don't want a country where asking your lawyer to take action that the lawyer decides is ill advised and doesn't do, or trying to persuade a government official (who is the most powerful lawyer in the country and the individual trying to persuade is a lay person) or sending encouragement to former colleagues under criminal investigation or the president firing the FBI director--as he is legally entitled to do--especially one as venal and duplicitous as Comey (every democrat should agree with me about Comey's low character; he may have cost Hilary, for whom I voted, the election) is obstruction of justice. This is especially true where there was no underlying crime and the investigation was so demonstrably fueled by political motivation and animus.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obstruc...ueller-report/

I don't actually disagree with you on that at all. I think the case against Trump for obstruction is pretty weak. My only point is that under existing law, which is very broad, some of those things could technically qualify as "obstruction." That probably shouldn't be the case and I think it is unfair to say that any other person would be prosecuted for similar activity (to the extent any other person could actually do the things cited against Trump). I think an ordinary person could be prosecuted, but in most cases prosecutorial discretion would be exercised and no charges would be pursued.

[SeattleUte]

I don't actually disagree with you on that at all. I think the case against Trump for obstruction is pretty weak. My only point is that under existing law, which is very broad, some of those things could technically qualify as "obstruction." That probably shouldn't be the case and I think it is unfair to say that any other person would be prosecuted for similar activity (to the extent any other person could actually do the things cited against Trump). I think an ordinary person could be prosecuted, but in most cases prosecutorial discretion would be exercised and no charges would be pursued.

Great post.

[tooblue]

Certainly questioning whether an allegedly racist meme which the speaker did not even post or expressing skepticism that the intent was racist should not be called racist.

The reason that cave man doesn't work as a racist meme, and has never been one (to my knowledge, and this has discussion has prompted me to look for it), is that cave men were fully evolved humans. We're all still cave men, but with fancier gadgets and a different form of written expression.

Why does reddit shut down or "quarantine" questions or discussion forums about representative Al Green as a caveman?

[falafel]

The meme is based in large part on Al Greene's looks. They are saying he looks like a caveman. There's racial component to that. The meme started in some uglier corners of Trump fandom. It's not a case of hypersensitivity, although I can see how you might think that.

How is there a racial component to saying a person looks like a caveman?

[Katy Lied]

Without having read the article - so maybe this is what it says...

There was a political commentator on the radio this morning talking about Mueller's testimony and what comes next. When asked about impeachment, the response was that Nancy isn't going to touch that with a 10 ft pole until/unless there is huge bi-partisan support. So locals can take the info from the Mueller testimony and report and try to drum up that support. But until/unless it happens, she sees impeachment as a political briar patch that would do more damage to the Dems next election than good.

I wonder if you mean "tar baby" rather than briar patch. The briar patch could have been anything: the crick, the forest, the chimney.
Tar baby on the surface kind of evokes racism, but it's not a reference to an african american baby. Tar just happens to be black. The key is that tar is sticky, not that tar is black.
More racism bait comes from current condemnation of Uncle Remus tales, which includes the Tar Baby story.
Not sure how to proceed here. Is it racist to refer to any of the Uncle Remus tales? (This one refers to a rabbit, a fox, a tar baby, and a briar patch)

[Commando]

How is there a racial component to saying a person looks like a caveman?

Because of the history of black men being called 'neanderthals' etc because of their physical features e.g. wide nose, etc.

[creekster]

Why does reddit shut down or "quarantine" questions or discussion forums about representative Al Green as a caveman?

the thread that is quarantined is identified as being quarantined for the following reason:

"This community is quarantined: It is restricted due to significant issues with reporting and addressing violations of the Reddit Content Policy. Most recently the violations have included threats of violence against police and public officials."

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/...emans_caveman/


The post that was deleted was deleted for the following reason:

"Thanks for your submission, but it has been removed for the following reason:

Disallowed question area: Loaded question or rant. NSQ does not allow questions not asked in good faith, such as rants disguised as questions, asking loaded questions, pushing hidden or overt agendas, attempted pot stirring, sealioning, etc."

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQue..._looks_like_a/

So that seems fairly inconclusive to me.

Here is the thing: Al Green is pretty ugly. I do not think the meme is per se racist and I think a comparison to a caveman is not necessarily racist. Even so, it probably isn't the best thing to compare him to a caveman, but it also is not worth nearly as many pixels as have been spent here arguing about racist intent. And, either way, Reddit moderation policies are likely never a good basis to decide this issue.

[Commando]

I wonder if you mean "tar baby" rather than briar patch. The briar patch could have been anything: the crick, the forest, the chimney.
Tar baby on the surface kind of evokes racism, but it's not a reference to an african american baby. Tar just happens to be black. The key is that tar is sticky, not that tar is black.
More racism bait comes from current condemnation of Uncle Remus tales, which includes the Tar Baby story.
Not sure how to proceed here. Is it racist to refer to any of the Uncle Remus tales? (This one refers to a rabbit, a fox, a tar baby, and a briar patch)

I know that saying 'Tar Baby' is a no-no as well... and I don't think it's because of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby-- I think that Tar Baby might have been an actual common racial slur in the South in the last 150 years...

I can't confirm that, it's just kind of the sense I get since people freaked out when Mitt evoked 'tar-baby' years ago.

[creekster]

I wonder if you mean "tar baby" rather than briar patch. The briar patch could have been anything: the crick, the forest, the chimney.
Tar baby on the surface kind of evokes racism, but it's not a reference to an african american baby. Tar just happens to be black. The key is that tar is sticky, not that tar is black.
More racism bait comes from current condemnation of Uncle Remus tales, which includes the Tar Baby story.
Not sure how to proceed here. Is it racist to refer to any of the Uncle Remus tales? (This one refers to a rabbit, a fox, a tar baby, and a briar patch)

Briar patches are thickets where briar plants grow. Briar plants have thorns on them and are a tangled mess that are difficult or impossible to get through without some sort of injury. SO, my guess is that when he said briar patch he meant that and not tar baby.