President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[BlueK]

When Roger Ailes died I read an article somewhere about how he re-shaped politics in the US through FoxNews. It said Ailes' idea with Fox was not only just to provide a conservative-leaning outlet which there was room for in the marketplace. His real aim was to actually influence and help define what the conservative agenda was supposed to be through how they would cover the news. Personally, I think the illegal immigration issue is front and center in that. Abortion was already there at the top of the list for conservatives in 1996 when Fox News went on the air. But at the time, I don't think immigration was that big of a deal for most Americans. But Fox relentlessly beat that drum for years until it rose nearly to the top of the "conservative" agenda.

[BlueK]

Up is down, black is white, RINOs don't work with democrats enough:

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This is the end result of tea party and other grass roots activism. It energizes the base, but on the right it still remains only a protest vote. And it protests anything that disagrees with the populist who takes up their cause.

If you've seen his show you know Dobbs is an idiot who worships Trump. Funny how he's redefining terms to match that love for Trump. Calling Ryan a RINO because he doesn't always fall completely in line with Trump is pretty ironic when it's Trump who is the all-time poster boy for what being "Republican in name only" is. If anything, Ryan has been deferring to Trump way too much. He should just get the House to start passing a traditional Republican agenda and sending it to Trump's desk, but it seems like they just keep looking back to see what Trump wants before they do anything. And of course nothing happens because Trump is incapable of being coherent or consistent about much.

[New Mexican Disaster]

Dobbs is a stupid idiot who worships Trump. Calling Ryan a RINO because he doesn't always fall completely in line with Trump is pretty ironic when it's Trump who is the all-time poster boy for what being Republican in name only is.

Correct. I did have to laugh about yesterday's events. You can't stop Trump, you can only hope to contain him.

[Topper]

But at the time, I don't think immigration was that big of a deal for most Americans. But Fox relentlessly beat that drum for years until it rose nearly to the top of the "conservative" agenda.

There is a certain number of persons who believe that unlawful immigration does two things: first, it provides unfair competition against US citizens by offering up workers at lower wages than blue collar or union workers might work for; and second, it somehow changes the culture of a northern European culture to a more South American culture which others believe is less economically productive. That is how some people justify their concern, in addition to a security concern, based on dangerous persons filtering through and criminals filtering through, unchecked. However, I don't believe most citizens find these issues very compelling except in certain union communities where the workers are grasping for anything.

[Eddie]

There is a certain number of persons who believe that unlawful immigration does two things: first, it provides unfair competition against US citizens by offering up workers at lower wages than blue collar or union workers might work for; and second, it somehow changes the culture of a northern European culture to a more South American culture which others believe is less economically productive. That is how some people justify their concern, in addition to a security concern, based on dangerous persons filtering through and criminals filtering through, unchecked. However, I don't believe most citizens find these issues very compelling except in certain union communities where the workers are grasping for anything.

Put me on the list of supporters of change to a more South American culture if it includes more naps during the work day.

[cowboy]

When Roger Ailes died I read an article somewhere about how he re-shaped politics in the US through FoxNews. It said Ailes' idea with Fox was not only just to provide a conservative-leaning outlet which there was room for in the marketplace. His real aim was to actually influence and help define what the conservative agenda was supposed to be through how they would cover the news. Personally, I think the illegal immigration issue is front and center in that. Abortion was already there at the top of the list for conservatives in 1996 when Fox News went on the air. But at the time, I don't think immigration was that big of a deal for most Americans. But Fox relentlessly beat that drum for years until it rose nearly to the top of the "conservative" agenda.

For as much as people talk about it, I've not seen any data that support this. Exit poll results from CNN on November 23 showed that only 13% of voters considered immigration to be the most important issue facing the country. Of those, 1/3 voted for Clinton, so less than 9% of voters polled, and less than 19% of Trump voters polled, placed immigration as priority #1. A February 2016 Gallup poll suggested that Republicans place immigration 7th, behind the economy, terrorism, the deficit, employment, foreign affairs, and the size of government. Interestingly, social issues such as abortion are more important to Democrats than Republicans, and are in the bottom tier of both groups' priorities, which leads me to wonder about the source that PAC quoted the other day who said Trump voters made their voting choice based on social issues.

I'm a pro immigration person. I believe we should have open borders for people to come work and live here, but that we should screen everybody coming in to keep convicted criminals out. The people I know who have flipped on this issue and become anti-immigration are people who live in the Southwest and have seen an influx of crime or they are blue collar people who don't like the competition. I'd say the Hannity crowd who has suddenly jumped on the immigration bandwagon is a small one. The most common reason I hear from people who want a wall or other immigration restrictions is the belief that a porous border has encouraged criminals to come here.

Ironically, I believe that immigration restrictions are responsible for any increase in crime we've seen (not saying there is an increase) among the illegal alien demographic. The problem with immigration now is the same problem we had with prohibition: if people want something, they'll find a way to get it, and if the government makes that something illegal, organized crime becomes rich and powerful giving it to them. People are determined to come here, and until we let them, we will only empower organized crime and other criminals who will bring them here. By trying to close our southern border we have enabled criminal syndicates who take advantage of honest people and also traffic drugs, other criminals, and have created a human slave trade that is much larger because of people who are desperate to get to the country to live the American Dream.

[frank ryan]

I'm a pro immigration person. I believe we should have open borders for people to come work and live here, but that we should screen everybody coming in to keep convicted criminals out.

That's a very reasonable position

[Topper]

Put me on the list of supporters of change to a more South American culture if it includes more naps during the work day.

I don't need any help taking a siesta during the work day.

[Topper]

For as much as people talk about it, I've not seen any data that support this. Exit poll results from CNN on November 23 showed that only 13% of voters considered immigration to be the most important issue facing the country. Of those, 1/3 voted for Clinton, so less than 9% of voters polled, and less than 19% of Trump voters polled, placed immigration as priority #1. A February 2016 Gallup poll suggested that Republicans place immigration 7th, behind the economy, terrorism, the deficit, employment, foreign affairs, and the size of government. Interestingly, social issues such as abortion are more important to Democrats than Republicans, and are in the bottom tier of both groups' priorities, which leads me to wonder about the source that PAC quoted the other day who said Trump voters made their voting choice based on social issues.

I'm a pro immigration person. I believe we should have open borders for people to come work and live here, but that we should screen everybody coming in to keep convicted criminals out. The people I know who have flipped on this issue and become anti-immigration are people who live in the Southwest and have seen an influx of crime or they are blue collar people who don't like the competition. I'd say the Hannity crowd who has suddenly jumped on the immigration bandwagon is a small one. The most common reason I hear from people who want a wall or other immigration restrictions is the belief that a porous border has encouraged criminals to come here.

Ironically, I believe that immigration restrictions are responsible for any increase in crime we've seen (not saying there is an increase) among the illegal alien demographic. The problem with immigration now is the same problem we had with prohibition: if people want something, they'll find a way to get it, and if the government makes that something illegal, organized crime becomes rich and powerful giving it to them. People are determined to come here, and until we let them, we will only empower organized crime and other criminals who will bring them here. By trying to close our southern border we have enabled criminal syndicates who take advantage of honest people and also traffic drugs, other criminals, and have created a human slave trade that is much larger because of people who are desperate to get to the country to live the American Dream.

I agree with a lot of this post.

It is obvious that American businesses want/need the immigrants. And if we wish to remain a growth based economy, the immigrants are the ones that will keep the population growing and provide for cheap labor. We simply need a couple of reasonable filters.

First, we need to filter for the criminals. We shouldn't warehouse other countries' rejects.
Second, we should have visa quotas or work visas for laborers from our Southern border in reasonable quantities.
Third, there should be a reasonable path to citizenship, not one that is indefinite and unreachable.

Immigration has been a backbone of our labor and growth economy. Switching to a static model is not something we've planned for or addressed.

[bluegoose]

For as much as people talk about it, I've not seen any data that support this. Exit poll results from CNN on November 23 showed that only 13% of voters considered immigration to be the most important issue facing the country. Of those, 1/3 voted for Clinton, so less than 9% of voters polled, and less than 19% of Trump voters polled, placed immigration as priority #1. A February 2016 Gallup poll suggested that Republicans place immigration 7th, behind the economy, terrorism, the deficit, employment, foreign affairs, and the size of government. Interestingly, social issues such as abortion are more important to Democrats than Republicans, and are in the bottom tier of both groups' priorities, which leads me to wonder about the source that PAC quoted the other day who said Trump voters made their voting choice based on social issues.

I'm a pro immigration person. I believe we should have open borders for people to come work and live here, but that we should screen everybody coming in to keep convicted criminals out. The people I know who have flipped on this issue and become anti-immigration are people who live in the Southwest and have seen an influx of crime or they are blue collar people who don't like the competition. I'd say the Hannity crowd who has suddenly jumped on the immigration bandwagon is a small one. The most common reason I hear from people who want a wall or other immigration restrictions is the belief that a porous border has encouraged criminals to come here.

Ironically, I believe that immigration restrictions are responsible for any increase in crime we've seen (not saying there is an increase) among the illegal alien demographic. The problem with immigration now is the same problem we had with prohibition: if people want something, they'll find a way to get it, and if the government makes that something illegal, organized crime becomes rich and powerful giving it to them. People are determined to come here, and until we let them, we will only empower organized crime and other criminals who will bring them here. By trying to close our southern border we have enabled criminal syndicates who take advantage of honest people and also traffic drugs, other criminals, and have created a human slave trade that is much larger because of people who are desperate to get to the country to live the American Dream.

I agree with much of the first half of your post. But I don't think the data would support the idea that illegal immigration has resulted in an increase in crime. Not saying that is what you are arguing, but the perception held by southwesterners that you are suggesting is misguided at best.


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[beefytee]

I agree with much of the first half of your post. But I don't think the data would support the idea that illegal immigration has resulted in an increase in crime. Not saying that is what you are arguing, but the perception held by southwesterners that you are suggesting is misguided at best.

In fact the data overwhelmingly point in the other direction.

https://www.livescience.com/4872-imm...ime-rates.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.013058ccf64a

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/u...nts-crime.html

Of course the detractors would claim that unlawfully being in the country is a crime so....

[cowboy]

I agree with much of the first half of your post. But I don't think the data would support the idea that illegal immigration has resulted in an increase in crime. Not saying that is what you are arguing, but the perception held by southwesterners that you are suggesting is misguided at best.


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I have seen data supporting both sides. Some incidents on border-area ranches have driven most of the opinions I hear. I honestly don't know, but I do believe that restricting immigration creates a black market that empowers organized crime.

[cowboy]

In fact the data overwhelmingly point in the other direction.

https://www.livescience.com/4872-imm...ime-rates.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.013058ccf64a

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/u...nts-crime.html

Of course the detractors would claim that unlawfully being in the country is a crime so....

Most data combine legal and illegal immigrants. Other data suggest that those who are here illegally are more likely to commit crime than those here legally, which would make sense, as legal immigrants would not want to risk deportation. Two-thirds of the crimes committed by non-citizens in Texas are committed by people here illegally. Likewise, the murder rate among those here illegally is much higher than legal immigrants and the population in general. I'm not taking a stand on this, just pointing out that there are data that will support either side. This site gives a pretty good breakdown of both arguments.

[beefytee]

Most data combine legal and illegal immigrants. Other data suggest that those who are here illegally are more likely to commit crime than those here legally, which would make sense, as legal immigrants would not want to risk deportation. Two-thirds of the crimes committed by non-citizens in Texas are committed by people here illegally. Likewise, the murder rate among those here illegally is much higher than legal immigrants and the population in general. I'm not taking a stand on this, just pointing out that there are data that will support either side. This site gives a pretty good breakdown of both arguments.

That site is great! It says Rupert Murdoch is a 3 star expert on immigration citing a Twitter post.

[old_gregg]

That site is great! It says Rupert Murdoch is a 3 star expert on immigration citing a Twitter post.

the rest of them are similarly worthy. cowboy, u serious bro?