Same-sex marriage coming to Utah

[Dwight Schr-ute]

So this survey question has undergone a third round of editing.

SSA Survey.jpg

[Moliere]

Interesting quote from George Q. Cannon:

"If we, as a people, had attempted to practice this principle without revelation, it is likely that we should have been led into grievous sins, and the condemnation of God would have rested upon us; but the Church waited until the proper time came, and then the people practiced it according to the mind and will of God, making a sacrifice of their own feelings in so doing. But the history of the world goes to prove that the practice of this principle, even by nations ignorant of the Gospel, has resulted in greater good to them than the practice of monogamy or the one-wife system in the so-called Christian nations. To-day, Christendom holds itself and its institutions aloft as a pattern for all men to follow. If you travel throughout the United States and through the nations of Europe in which Christianity prevails, and talk with the people about their institutions, they will boast of them as being the most permanent, indestructible and progressive of any institutions existing upon the earth; yet it is a fact well known to historians, that the Christian nations of Europe are the youngest nations on the globe. Where are the nations that have existed from time immemorial? They are not to be found in Christian monogamic Europe, but in Asia, among the polygamic races—China, Japan, Hindostan and the various races of that vast continent. Those nations, from the most remote times, practiced plural marriage handed down to them by their forefathers. Although they are looked upon by the nations of Europe as semi-civilized, you will not find among them woman prostituted, debased and degraded as she is through Christendom. She may be treated coldly and degraded, but among them, except where the Christian element prevails to a large extent, she is not debased and polluted, as she is among the so-called Christian nations. It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest-lived nations of which we have record have been monogamic. Rome...was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her."

I continue to find it interesting that the church was crying about persecution and infringement on religious freedom when they wanted to practice a form of marriage other than "traditional marriage" and they've pretty much about faced on the argument in the matter of a century.

[beefytee]

I continue to find it interesting that the church was crying about persecution and infringement on religious freedom when they wanted to practice a form of marriage other than "traditional marriage" and they've pretty much about faced on the argument in the matter of a century.

The church had to conform to socially accepted practices. Everyone else should too!

[Solon]

Interesting quote from George Q. Cannon:

" It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest-lived nations of which we have record have been monogamic. Rome...was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her."

I continue to find it interesting that the church was crying about persecution and infringement on religious freedom when they wanted to practice a form of marriage other than "traditional marriage" and they've pretty much about faced on the argument in the matter of a century.

LOL at Rome being a short-lived nation.

[San Juan Sun]

LOL at Rome being a short-lived nation.

I am interested in that stable, polygamous societies on Hindostan.

[byu71]

LOL at Rome being a short-lived nation.

So those who point to a breakdown in the family unit and a large influx of immigrant workers as part of what led to Rome's downfall are wrong?

I would agree to call it a short-lived nation shows some ignorance.

[Solon]

So those who point to a breakdown in the family unit and a large influx of immigrant workers as part of what led to Rome's downfall are wrong?

I would agree to call it a short-lived nation shows some ignorance.

That Cullen Murphy book ruined most people's ideas of Rome.

Calling them "immigrant workers" is anachronistic. Rome's frontiers were two-way sieves. By the 4th century, it was pretty much impossible to differentiate between a Romanized German & a Germanized Roman. More than anything, Rome was an idea, readily conveyed across time, distance, and cultures.

Rome's greatest advantage over other ancient states was its ability to assimilate other peoples & offer them citizenship, thereby engendering a sense of ownership, pride, and willingness to support the idea of the Empire. It wasn't immigration that ended Rome. Immigration is what made it great. Otherwise, the city would have been just like any other forgotten Italian group of hovels.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That Cullen Murphy book ruined most people's ideas of Rome.

Calling them "immigrant workers" is anachronistic. Rome's frontiers were two-way sieves. By the 4th century, it was pretty much impossible to differentiate between a Romanized German & a Germanized Roman. More than anything, Rome was an idea, readily conveyed across time, distance, and cultures.

Rome's greatest advantage over other ancient states was its ability to assimilate other peoples & offer them citizenship, thereby engendering a sense of ownership, pride, and willingness to support the idea of the Empire. It wasn't immigration that ended Rome. Immigration is what made it great. Otherwise, the city would have been just like any other forgotten Italian group of hovels.

Furthermore, when conquering and then assimilating a new people, the Romans would adopt the gods worshipped by the new people into the Roman pantheon of Gods. But when Constantine converted to Christianity, there was great opposition because Christianity rejected polytheism and was a serious threat to this tradition that had helped maintain order and (relative) peace for so long. So I guess you could argue that adopting Christianity was one of the downfalls of the Roman empire.

But I doubt that made it into Murphy's book.

[byu71]

That Cullen Murphy book ruined most people's ideas of Rome.

Calling them "immigrant workers" is anachronistic. Rome's frontiers were two-way sieves. By the 4th century, it was pretty much impossible to differentiate between a Romanized German & a Germanized Roman. More than anything, Rome was an idea, readily conveyed across time, distance, and cultures.

Rome's greatest advantage over other ancient states was its ability to assimilate other peoples & offer them citizenship, thereby engendering a sense of ownership, pride, and willingness to support the idea of the Empire. It wasn't immigration that ended Rome. Immigration is what made it great. Otherwise, the city would have been just like any other forgotten Italian group of hovels.

Was it also this Murphy guy who said it had gotten to the point that the state paid for everything and basically Romans did nothing but be served by non-Romans.

Whoever was discussing Rome on the show I watched said that even the wealthy were getting all sorts of benefits paid by the state.

[HBCoug]

Interesting quote from George Q. Cannon:

I continue to find it interesting that the church was crying about persecution and infringement on religious freedom when they wanted to practice a form of marriage other than "traditional marriage" and they've pretty much about faced on the argument in the matter of a century.

In both cases (the practice of polygamy and in opposition to same-sex marriage), the church is merely executing God's will as expressed thru His mouthpiece, thus there is no hypocrisy. "God said" is the ultimate trump card for believers.

[All-American]

That Cullen Murphy book ruined most people's ideas of Rome.

Calling them "immigrant workers" is anachronistic. Rome's frontiers were two-way sieves. By the 4th century, it was pretty much impossible to differentiate between a Romanized German & a Germanized Roman. More than anything, Rome was an idea, readily conveyed across time, distance, and cultures.

Rome's greatest advantage over other ancient states was its ability to assimilate other peoples & offer them citizenship, thereby engendering a sense of ownership, pride, and willingness to support the idea of the Empire. It wasn't immigration that ended Rome. Immigration is what made it great. Otherwise, the city would have been just like any other forgotten Italian group of hovels.

One of my classics professors insists that the lack of a difference between germanized Romans and romanized Germans was a major contribution to rime's fall. The idea of Rome conveyed across cultures and borders, sure, but ubiquity has a way of watering down significance. It got to the point, he claims, that being roman simply didn't mean much to the Romans anymore.

[Pheidippides]

10th circuit upheld the decision.

[Pheidippides]

10th circuit upheld the decision.

further edit: 2-1 decision, stayed pending writ of certiorari to the SCOTUS, strict scrutiny applied.

[Uncle Ted]

10th circuit upheld the decision.

So what happened to that dude that was on the hunger strike? Is he going to starve himself again?

Oh, wait, looks like he went on a "40 day Facebook blackout" now... https://www.facebook.com/trestin.meacham

[TripletDaddy]

So what happened to that dude that was on the hunger strike? Is he going to starve himself again?

Oh, wait, looks like he went on a "40 day Facebook blackout" now... https://www.facebook.com/trestin.meacham

This was a post he made right before he left on his blackout:

Let's talk about something that is far to often ignored and ridiculed, the devil.