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  • Oral arguments were heard yesterday in Kitchen v. Herbert. There's a link to the audio file on the tenth circuit website if you want to listen to it.

    No real surprises, except one (for me). Prior to this case, just about every court that has determined that traditional definitions of marriage violate the constitution have determined that there is no rational basis for such laws. Consequently, it was unneccessary in any of those cases to determine whether such laws ought to be subject to a heightened form of scrutiny (whether it be strict scrutiny, typical of race-discrimination cases, or so-called "intermediate scrutiny," usually applied in gender-discrimination cases). In this case, by contrast, one of the judges very explicitly said that the traditional marriage definition would likely pass a rational basis test, though not heightened scrutiny. It's something that could end up being important, not so much in this case (where Windsor strongly suggests the ultimate outcome anyway), but in other cases where laws have disparate effects on gays. In fact, this is probably the one area where the 10th Circuit would be able to make any substantive legal contribution. If the Supreme Court is poised to dismiss this particular law as failing to pass even rational basis review (as it seems prepared to do), then the 10th Circuit's decision regarding the appropriate level of scrutiny could survive appeal, thus setting the standard by which judges determine the constitutionality of other laws drawing distinctions based on sexual orientation.

    (That's assuming, of course, that the levels of scrutiny mean anything to any judges any more. As a formal matter, the doctrine still gets lip service, but more and more, it seems to be an overly verbose way of saying that courts must ask whether a given government objective justifies a given form of discrimination, recognizing that the interests underlying either of those factors may vary from case to case.)
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

    Comment


    • Originally posted by All-American View Post
      Oral arguments were heard yesterday in Kitchen v. Herbert. There's a link to the audio file on the tenth circuit website if you want to listen to it.

      No real surprises, except one (for me). Prior to this case, just about every court that has determined that traditional definitions of marriage violate the constitution have determined that there is no rational basis for such laws. Consequently, it was unneccessary in any of those cases to determine whether such laws ought to be subject to a heightened form of scrutiny (whether it be strict scrutiny, typical of race-discrimination cases, or so-called "intermediate scrutiny," usually applied in gender-discrimination cases). In this case, by contrast, one of the judges very explicitly said that the traditional marriage definition would likely pass a rational basis test, though not heightened scrutiny. It's something that could end up being important, not so much in this case (where Windsor strongly suggests the ultimate outcome anyway), but in other cases where laws have disparate effects on gays. In fact, this is probably the one area where the 10th Circuit would be able to make any substantive legal contribution. If the Supreme Court is poised to dismiss this particular law as failing to pass even rational basis review (as it seems prepared to do), then the 10th Circuit's decision regarding the appropriate level of scrutiny could survive appeal, thus setting the standard by which judges determine the constitutionality of other laws drawing distinctions based on sexual orientation.

      (That's assuming, of course, that the levels of scrutiny mean anything to any judges any more. As a formal matter, the doctrine still gets lip service, but more and more, it seems to be an overly verbose way of saying that courts must ask whether a given government objective justifies a given form of discrimination, recognizing that the interests underlying either of those factors may vary from case to case.)
      Bottom line is the state of Utah will lose.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
        Bottom line is the state of Utah will lose.
        By the time the Supreme Court is done with it, very likely. The 10th Cir. panel could go either way, but it doesn't really matter.
        τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          Bottom line is the state of Utah will lose.
          One can only hope.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
            Bottom line is the state University of Utah will lose.
            Originally posted by New Mexican Disaster View Post
            One can only hope.
            FIFY
            "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
            - Goatnapper'96

            Comment


            • Anybody know when the ruling will be issued?

              BTW, maybe this has been posted before, but this is one my favorite K&P sketches.

              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

              Comment


              • When the decision comes down, I will support it. It is the system we live under.

                I am sure the rest of you will react the same way. Fortunately it won't have to be debated anymore.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                  Anybody know when the ruling will be issued?

                  BTW, maybe this has been posted before, but this is one my favorite K&P sketches.

                  They can take as long as they want, really. Expect a few months.
                  τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

                  Comment


                  • LOL...

                    Mormon Leaders Omit ‘Gay’ In Survey Asking Students ‘What Is Your Sexual Orientation?’

                    Mormon Leaders Ask Students If They ‘Struggle With Same-Sex Attraction’ – ‘Homosexual’ Or ‘Bisexual’ Not An Option

                    A confidential survey distributed to some Brigham Young University students reveals the depths of ignorance the Mormon Church’s top leadership has about homosexuality. Students were told the survey was created to screen students for a focus group designed to better understand Millennial’s attitudes about “same-sex attraction,” yet it makes clear that “gay” is not an option — literally.

                    “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is conducting a focus group to better understand your views on marriage and same-sex attraction,” the short survey, which was exclusively obtained by The New Civil Rights Movement, reads. An email requesting students’ participation appeared to have been sent by Michael Colemere, Managing Director, Communication Services, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Brigham Young University, which has a student population of about 34,000, is wholly owned and operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).


                    The online survey asks basic questions, and also requests respondents rate on a scale of 1-5 if they are “not intimidated by people [they are] unfamiliar with,” if they “enjoy participating in new situations,” are “open to new ideas and experiences,” are “comfortable expressing [their] opinion to others,” and if they “often set the trends in [their] social circle.”


                    The survey also asks the students to rate their “stance on social and moral issues” on a 1-5 scale, from “Traditional / conservative” to “Progressive / liberal.”


                    All relatively basic questions.

                    But the survey also asks students to answer the question, “What is your sexual orientation?”


                    There are only three options and students must choose one:

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]4162[/ATTACH]

                    […]

                    A link to the survey was sent via email and included the request to complete the survey “to help the Quorum of the Twelve better understand what YSA members believe about same sex attraction.” The Quorum of the Twelve is part of the governing body of the Mormon, or Latter Day Saint church.
                    http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com...14/04/25/86363

                    And black people are actually white, but struggle with a really dark sun tan.
                    Attached Files
                    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                      LOL...


                      http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com...14/04/25/86363

                      And black people are actually white, but struggle with a really dark sun tan.

                      Nice way to sample YSA members too. BYU students. Because they are definitely representative of all YSA in the church right?
                      "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

                      Comment


                      • I hear that they don't have any gay people in Iran either.
                        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                          LOL...


                          http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com...14/04/25/86363

                          And black people are actually white, but struggle with a really dark sun tan.
                          I'm calling bullshit on that. That is literally the only site I have found reporting this (except for a few other anti-Mormon sites to link to this site as a source). Something this obtuse is going to get more coverage than that.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by UVACoug View Post
                            I'm calling bullshit on that. That is literally the only site I have found reporting this (except for a few other anti-Mormon sites to link to this site as a source). Something this obtuse is going to get more coverage than that.
                            technically there was an "other" in the survey.
                            Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by UVACoug View Post
                              I'm calling bullshit on that. That is literally the only site I have found reporting this (except for a few other anti-Mormon sites to link to this site as a source). Something this obtuse is going to get more coverage than that.
                              Yeah, I would like to see a link to the actual survey. With the smartest and hottest students in the country one would think that more than one BYU student would have pointed out the strange wording in the survey.
                              "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                              "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                              "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                              GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by UVACoug View Post
                                I'm calling bullshit on that. That is literally the only site I have found reporting this (except for a few other anti-Mormon sites to link to this site as a source). Something this obtuse is going to get more coverage than that.
                                https://lds.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_57TwNKem0hvlB1r

                                "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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