FOS just got needier?

[smokymountainrain]

What's the downside?

Lol.

[eldiente]

Not even close to true. There are plenty of camps that scouts can attend that are not affiliated with the BSA. Sure they can't attend a BSA ran "scout camp" but any scout leader with organizational skills can set up a similar camp for a troop and get just as many merit badges passed off without charging $250 per boy.

No way.... liability expenses for merit badges such as shooting sports, aquatics, would eat any "independent" camp up.....

BSA liability insurance is the best value going

[Eddie]

Not even close to true. There are plenty of camps that scouts can attend that are not affiliated with the BSA. Sure they can't attend a BSA ran "scout camp" but any scout leader with organizational skills can set up a similar camp for a troop and get just as many merit badges passed off without charging $250 per boy.

I don't think it's that simple.

Depending on what you want to experience - our boys have been to camps with horses, white water rafting, canoeing, shooting - bows, .22's and shotguns, etc.

It would take more than just a little bit of organizational skill to get the right people with the right equipment in a close enough geographical area to allow the boys to experience all of it within a week. Sure - it can be done. But having planned our own camp with some of these activities on more than one occasion - it can be a challenge. It can be a challenge to get all the equipment. It can be a challenge to get enough adult leaders there with the right skills. It is much too tiring for me to even think about doing every year. And I think that the boys also benefit at times from being at a big camp where they are interacting with 100's of other boys in that environment.

[eldiente]

No I was asking about the downside of scouting dying.

Probably no worse than loosing BYU football to independence.

Each has merits to some - perhaps not to all. I would argue that BSA benefits the Church much more significantly than BYU football.....

Exposure is broader and deeper for volunteers involved in scouting who have opportunityt to "rub shoulders" with LDS members similarly engaged. ESPN viewership doesn't have nearly the same magnitude of worth imho.

[Solon]

What do you want me to call them?

Some people are gay.

Some people are struggling with it.

I think they are different from each other. Sure, they have some similarities. But I think there are also differences. And the folks I think BSA wouldn't have a problem with are the ones who are struggling with it. I think they would have a problem with folks who have accepted it.

Dallin H. Oaks: We should note that the words homosexual, lesbian, and gay are adjectives to describe particular thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. We should refrain from using these words as nouns
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/10/s...ction?lang=eng

[Eddie]

That really doesn't help me much when I'm trying to distinguish between two populations. I am open to learning something new, honest.

I was trying to describe two different approaches/reactions. That is all. If you've got a better way to describe it, I'm all ears.


Tell me what descriptors you would use in this situation?

[TripletDaddy]

Isn't D-HO using them as nouns in that sentence? He uses them as a list of "words," not in a descriptive sense.

[The_Douger]

That was my thought as well. The church encourages gay men (and boys) to participate in church and activities. Would BSA rule out folks that the church wanted to have participate?

It then occurred to me that BSA may not have an issue with people struggling with same gender attraction (other than if they somehow attribute a higher risk factor of sexual abuse occurring) who is living an "active LDS" lifestyle. But they would have an issue with an openly gay individual in a gay relationship living a gay lifestyle and "flaunting" it in front of all of the other leaders and boys. (And really - I'm not sure what I mean by "flaunting" - but I assume that would be a concern.)

So by eliminating all gays, they don't put themselves in a position of having to identify who are the worthy gays and who are the unworthy gays.



Not necessarily true. I've seen some of the numbers and percentages. And some of this does go to full-time "scout" employees.

But I've seen the salaries of some of the folks they have on staff. And I think that you would agree that people who's salary is competitive with your average starting salary for an elementary school teacher in Utah probably is not fair to describe as being "bloated".

Some portion of the FOS money goes toward paying the operating expenses of camps that the council owns. Some goes towards training for volunteer youth leaders (whether they fully take advantage of it or not) and a not insignificant amount goes towards liability insurance as well.

Love it or hate it - an organization like BSA does require some full-time staff. And while you may argue that some of the upper management types are over paid, the staff certainly are not.

That said - if folks don't want to support FOS, whatever. That is your choice.

I am curious to know if/how that may impact the local troops. Like how much do camp fees increase if they don't meet FOS goals, or do they increase fees to the chartering organizations per boy and leader. I don't know - I just assume that they end up making up the difference somewhere.

I'm not talking about those folks.

I'm talking about the adult full time scouters that are clearing six figures in the 250k range. I think that's a ton. I think the guy here in Salt Lake makes around that, last I checked. That's a lot of money for that.

And I'm just unsupportive of scouting in general. I'm an Eagle Scout, it was a good experience for me, but the hiding and harboring of sexual offenders within the scouting program has really turned me off to it, not to mention good kids being denied their Eagle because they are gay. That's not kind, helpful, loyal, friendly, or brave.

Those reasons are why I'm unsupportive of Friends of Scouting.

I'm sure my son will participate, because that's the activities wing of the church for young men right now, and if I donate, it will only be for our local area to help our boys. I want control over where the funds go if I'm spending money on it.

And I get not everyone feels this way. And that's ok too.

[Eddie]

I'm not talking about those folks.

I'm talking about the adult full time scouters that are clearing six figures in the 250k range. I think that's a ton. I think the guy here in Salt Lake makes around that, last I checked. That's a lot of money for that.

And I'm just unsupportive of scouting in general. I'm an Eagle Scout, it was a good experience for me, but the hiding and harboring of sexual offenders within the scouting program has really turned me off to it, not to mention good kids being denied their Eagle because they are gay. That's not kind, helpful, loyal, friendly, or brave.

Those reasons are why I'm unsupportive of Friends of Scouting.

I'm sure my son will participate, because that's the activities wing of the church for young men right now, and if I donate, it will only be for our local area to help our boys. I want control over where the funds go if I'm spending money on it.

And I get not everyone feels this way. And that's ok too.

We are more alike than different. I have frustrations with some of this too and advocate some changes to scouting.

I used to hate FOS. I'm just a little more pragmatic now and understand that it helps locally more than I initially believed. That doesn't mean there aren't things I wouldn't change about it.

[Moliere]

I don't think it's that simple.

Depending on what you want to experience - our boys have been to camps with horses, white water rafting, canoeing, shooting - bows, .22's and shotguns, etc.

It would take more than just a little bit of organizational skill to get the right people with the right equipment in a close enough geographical area to allow the boys to experience all of it within a week. Sure - it can be done. But having planned our own camp with some of these activities on more than one occasion - it can be a challenge. It can be a challenge to get all the equipment. It can be a challenge to get enough adult leaders there with the right skills. It is much too tiring for me to even think about doing every year. And I think that the boys also benefit at times from being at a big camp where they are interacting with 100's of other boys in that environment.

Taking cost out of the equation, our boys did all of that stuff and more (fishing, hiking, etc.) on high adventure and we never set one foot on a BSA camp. Think of how great it would be to have $2K to $3K more in funds for the youth rather than having that money go to scout executives. You could buy better equipment for the YM and you could still go camping, hiking or whatever.

I'll never understand why people think that if scouting dies the YM will be left with nothing to do. It's like Democrats that are afraid if Obamacare gets repealed everyone in the world will be left without health insurance.

[Jeff Lebowski]

What do you want me to call them?

Some people are gay.

Some people are struggling with it.

I think they are different from each other. Sure, they have some similarities. But I think there are also differences. And the folks I think BSA wouldn't have a problem with are the ones who are struggling with it. I think they would have a problem with folks who have accepted it.

He is doing you a favor with the suggestion as most gays are offended by that expression. "Struggling with same gender attraction" makes it sound like there is something wrong with the person and he/she can overcome it by just trying a little harder. It is kind of like referring to a black person as "struggling with overly black skin pigment".

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm not talking about those folks.

I'm talking about the adult full time scouters that are clearing six figures in the 250k range. I think that's a ton. I think the guy here in Salt Lake makes around that, last I checked. That's a lot of money for that.

The one that kills me is the top BSA executive. He pulls in a cool $1M per year. All from donations.

[Jeff Lebowski]

In all honesty - the biggest downside is simply that BSA gives some sense of structure to the weekday activities of the YM. I would guess that most LDS wards do such a poor job of planning and following that structure that the loss of BSA would be somewhat mitigated.

With all due respect, this kind of response is insulting to church members and illustrates a corporate mentality. We don't need structure just for the sake of structure. Give us members some credit. All the record-keeping, uniforms, merit badges, ranks, scoutmaster conference, boards of review, courts on honor, scout committees, fundraising, blah blah blah... adds a huge layer of bloated overhead that is completely unnecessary. What is the underlying objective of a church youth program? Provide opportunities for fellowshipping, promoting faith, etc. We would be MORE efficient at those activities if we were to jettison the BSA overhead, not less.

The LDS church would then have to determine what they want to do instead, if anything. And in all honesty, the old Duty to God program - that had a lot more activities - would probably be a fair replacement for it. Particularly if it was beefed up a little.

Please no. Going back to the old Duty to God program would be a mistake. It would bore the boys and the leaders to tears. They need to set up a youth program patterned after Venturing. The boys and the leaders plan a set of activities designed around the interests of the youth and then the leaders provide shadow leadership.

[RC Vikings]

The one that kills me is the top BSA executive. He pulls in a cool $1M per year. All from donations.

http://www.scoutingnews.org/2009/08/...alaries-study/

[The_Douger]

The one that kills me is the top BSA executive. He pulls in a cool $1M per year. All from donations.

You could find someone to do that job for 80-100k per year.