FOS just got needier?

[Northwestcoug]

Your experience sounds similar to mine (10 years as participant, 7 years as parent of two kids involved ) except for the emphasis placed on the grand champions at the county fair. Why does there always have to be a winner? That part frustrates since the winning projects tend to be parent accomplishments..... Scouting emphasizes the success of all to a greater extent IMHO.

Speaking as a parent of a champion , I can see some truth to that. But we've been lucky with our clubs. The leaders have been dedicated about teaching the kids, not just preparing them to win at fair. The fair experience itself has also helped the kids become more confident. My 11 year old son who wants to do nothing but have fun with his friends likes volunteering at different fair stations. Overall, it's been a very good experience.

[creekster]

My BIL is in the fair board for his county in No Cal - he lives in Grass Valley. I am always amazed at how much he reports that the lambs, calves, pigs, etc. bring in at auction. He buys a pig every year because he likes the flavor compared to what you can get in the grocery store.

The first time my daughter took a lamb to auction she was pretty young and was all teary eyed. It sold for some astronomical sum (I don't recall, but it was hundreds) and they paid her in cash. Her eyes got big and the big green monster of capitalism took firm root in her soul. The next year she raised two lambs and not a tear was seen on auction day.

[eldiente]

My BIL is in the fair board for his county in No Cal - he lives in Grass Valley. I am always amazed at how much he reports that the lambs, calves, pigs, etc. bring in at auction. He buys a pig every year because he likes the flavor compared to what you can get in the grocery store.

I buy a steer every year and share the meat with employees. This year an 1250 lb. steer brought $3.50 per pound!

So far the meat has been tasty.

[Uncle Ted]

The reference was to BSA camps..... Of course you can backpack (but liability insurance covers you courtesy of FOS funds )

You may not like it, but without FOS scouting dies.....

Just how much insurance is the BSA providing?

In Texas, the LDS church donates a significant amount to FOS but the BSA doesn't give the LDS troops liability insurance at the BSA camps. In fact, we have to bring an insurance statement that states the church is responsible to scout camp. The church, of course, is self insured which makes this statement kind of interesting.

In addition, every time I fill out a tour permit it has asked for the amounts of my insurance that I carry. I am guessing that BSA only will cover above that to a limit so if there is an accident it is coming out of your insurance (up to your limits) and going on your insurance record.

If you use your boat for a scouting activity then the BSA recommends that the owner must have liability insurance. While it depends on the size of the boat the BSA recommends $1 million as a minimum.

Finally, the BSA will not provide funds to help defend an adult leader for situation involving allegations of intentional and/or criminal acts. In other words, if you are accused of something then don't count on the BSA to help. You are on your own. What about the LDS church? Do they have your back? It seems that scout "volunteers" (do LDS leaders really volunteer?) actually take on a lot of liability if you look at the details.

I have been involved in scouting at various levels for about 12 or so years now. I have two sons that are eagle scouts. At first I didn't have an opinion of the BSA banning gay leaders from volunteering. The thought was they are a private organization and can say who they want and don't want for volunteers (of course, it may have some financial repercussions as in this case). However, when they deny a boy scout his eagle rank because he gay then I have a problem with that.

I used to be a somewhat generous donor to the FOS program. I stopped donating after reading about boys being kicked out of the program for being gay. That, to me, doesn't teach the other boys the core values of scouting and the scout spirit.

[Eddie]

...
I have been involved in scouting at various levels for about 12 or so years now. I have two sons that are eagle scouts. At first I didn't have an opinion of the BSA banning gay leaders from volunteering. The thought was they are a private organization and can say who they want and don't want for volunteers (of course, it may have some financial repercussions as in this case). However, when they deny a boy scout his eagle rank because he gay then I have a problem with that.

I used to be a somewhat generous donor to the FOS program. I stopped donating after reading about boys being kicked out of the program for being gay. That, to me, doesn't teach the other boys the core values of scouting and the scout spirit.

Why would the stupid Scoutmaster first encourage him to continue participating and earning the awards and then ultimately not sign off on him receiving his Eagle? What an idiot!

[Solon]

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Scouting is a bad thing*. I just think it is inefficient and outdated. It was probably a perfect fit for 1950's-1960's America. Not so anymore. We could do much better.

*I have to put a huge asterisk on that statement. To the extent that the BSA teaches and promotes discrimination by virtue of their anti-gay stance, I would say that Scouting is currently a bad thing. I continue to serve because I love the boys and they are mostly oblivious to this issue, but I cheer every time one of these big corporations drops support for the BSA. If they don't wake up and smell the coffee soon, the BSA will be forever tarnished as a bigoted organization. It might be too late already.

Scouting is a dinosaur from the progressive era, where urbanizing Americans were panicked about losing their rugged individualism and their frontier spirit. They were also worried about changing social norms as people moved to the cities, attained more education, and had unprecedented amounts of leisure time.

As an organization laid out along paramilitary lines, Scouting in the USA sought to inculcate American boys with the values, ethos, and experiences of the frontiersy "strenuous life" advocated by Pres. (Teddy) Roosevelt. Scouting's patriotic fervor was born from this ideal of American exceptionalism and a fear that the newly closed frontier had doomed Americans to a life of soft city living and factory jobs.

Maybe it's not time to completely chuck out scouting altogether, but it's time for a gigantic makeover. The same ultra-nationalistic, paramilitary, exceptionalist impulses that spawned scouting in the 1910s in the US spawned fascist movements in 1920s Europe. I know that sounds hyperbolic, but it's close enough to cause discomfort.

Pro-camping; anti-Scouting.

[ERCougar]

I had heard about the boy who was refused his Eagle because of his homosexuality, but I just read the article. He claims to have been bullied by other troop members because of his sexual orientation, a claim I find pretty believable. To boys who aren't old enough to know better--and I'd include my teenage self in that group--the homosexual ban too easily translates into a justification of homophobia. The same is true about our church's anti-gay marriage stance--they have the right to take the position, but it better be accompanied by a strong tolerance message, not just PR responses like "we hate the sin, not the sinner". Both organizations failed miserably in this respect.

[statman]

I had heard about the boy who was refused his Eagle because of his homosexuality, but I just read the article. He claims to have been bullied by other troop members because of his sexual orientation, a claim I find pretty believable. To boys who aren't old enough to know better--and I'd include my teenage self in that group--the homosexual ban too easily translates into a justification of homophobia. The same is true about our church's anti-gay marriage stance--they have the right to take the position, but it better be accompanied by a strong tolerance message, not just PR responses like "we hate the sin, not the sinner". Both organizations failed miserably in this respect.

I think the strong tolerance message is coming out of SLC now. Both the 2012 conferences had multiple talks that mentioned tolerance and inclusion of homosexuals. It will take a while until those messages are fully embraced by the rank-and-file, but the message is getting out there.

[Eddie]

Some scout leaders are just idiots.

Let's be honest - kids are brutal to each other. They will tease about anything. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it is fun and the person being teased doesn't mind. And some leaders, in an attempt to join in with the boys and be part of the group, even go along and join in the teasing.

I had a leader who wouldn't put up with ANY of it. He would hear even the beginning of someone teasing and would say something about self-concept and tell us to stop. We would get one warning, and then it was pushups or running laps. We'd laugh about it and say "self concept, self concept" back and forth - but the teasing stopped. And he didn't have to worry about whether or not it was fun or harmful - because it just didn't exist.

On the other hand, I work with a woman who is a single parent - never married. Her son's scout leader used her son as an example to teach all of the boys what the word "bastard" means. He never went back.

I assume the talk regarding the acceptance versus teasing of gay boys in a troop is similar. To me it isn't necessarily about him being gay. It is about bullying going on at all. I understand that this boy was teased or bullied due to being gay - and that is wrong. Knowing that any teasing happened at all leads me to believe that it if wasn't this boy being teased/bullied for being gay, it would've been another boy (or possibly even this boy) being teased/bullied for something else. Which is also wrong. Either way the leader needs to nip it early and often to make sure it doesn't continue.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I had heard about the boy who was refused his Eagle because of his homosexuality, but I just read the article. He claims to have been bullied by other troop members because of his sexual orientation, a claim I find pretty believable. To boys who aren't old enough to know better--and I'd include my teenage self in that group--the homosexual ban too easily translates into a justification of homophobia. The same is true about our church's anti-gay marriage stance--they have the right to take the position, but it better be accompanied by a strong tolerance message, not just PR responses like "we hate the sin, not the sinner". Both organizations failed miserably in this respect.

This brings back a shameful memory. In the mid-60s, when I was 12, it was customary to initiate scouts who were attending summer camp for the first time. I don't think I even knew what homosexuality was, but newcomer Raymond was a bit effeminate, and we made fun of his lack of athleticism (especially strange given our own shortcomings). For his initiation we had him skip through camp clad only in his underwear strewing flower petals while a couple of us played "Tiptoe Through the Tulips" on kazoos. He took it reasonably well, but I suspect he was humiliated; our leader did nothing of course, and as a tough firefighter he deplored any signs of prissiness. I understand Ray came out of the closet after his mission and is doing reasonably well, although he has long left the church.

This is one of a number of do-overs I wish I could have in my life, but mulligans are hard to come by.

[Harry Tic]

Me: an Eagle Scout who can barely tie his own shoelaces, much less some bowline-half-hitch-whatever-the-hell-knots I am supposed to know. I don't tell anyone (except on anonymous forums) that I'm an Eagle.

Kid #1: indifferent about scouts, would probably respond if I pushed him hard enough to get his Eagle.

Kid #2: actually kind of likes Scouts, at least the camping part. Could get his Eagle with a gentle nudge.

Dilemma: do I push these kids to get their Eagle, when the value of said rank probably has increasingly less cachet as BSA keeps finding itself on the losing end of public debates? Does the award really make any difference at all to getting into college (BYU or elsewhere), getting a first job, etc? My default position has been to run out the clock.

I often find myself wondering if the church will begin to distance itself from scouting post-TSM.

p.s. we've got doctors, lawyers, dentists, and business people on this board. Could someone please entice a BYU admissions officer to join?

[Bo Diddley]

The death of Scouting in the LDS Church is a matter of when, not if. President Monson is a huge supporter of Scouting, as are some of the other church leaders, but sooner or later it will go away.

I'm just not sure when.

I'm an Eagle, and I enjoyed the outdoors, but I always hated the structure. I hated wearing a uniform, I hated the songs, and I hated the Scout-o-Ramas. That all seemed gay to me in a bad but non-homosexual way. But I'm grateful to my scout leaders for all the time they put into the program on my behalf.

[Eddie]

Me: an Eagle Scout who can barely tie his own shoelaces, much less some bowline-half-hitch-whatever-the-hell-knots I am supposed to know. I don't tell anyone (except on anonymous forums) that I'm an Eagle.

Kid #1: indifferent about scouts, would probably respond if I pushed him hard enough to get his Eagle.

Kid #2: actually kind of likes Scouts, at least the camping part. Could get his Eagle with a gentle nudge.

Dilemma: do I push these kids to get their Eagle, when the value of said rank probably has increasingly less cachet as BSA keeps finding itself on the losing end of public debates? Does the award really make any difference at all to getting into college (BYU or elsewhere), getting a first job, etc? My default position has been to run out the clock.

I often find myself wondering if the church will begin to distance itself from scouting post-TSM.

p.s. we've got doctors, lawyers, dentists, and business people on this board. Could someone please entice a BYU admissions officer to join?

For me, the Eagle isn't about having that one award. It is about the experience a boy goes through to get it. The diverse experiences of trying a number of things. It doesn't hurt to have had some minimal first aid training. Learning about citizenship, emergency preparedness, family life, personal finance, how to swim, etc., are all good things. Exposure to a variety of experiences through the various merit badges is nice to try new things and see what you like. And doing an Eagle project is a good experience to learn some organizational and leadership skills.

That said - I think it is diminished when parents are overly involved and do all the work for the boy, or LDS wards are so stuck on getting the boy the Eagle that they gloss over certain requirements and the kid doesn't actually earn it.

Coming from your perspective - I would probably encourage my boys to get it for what the journey to earn the award represents. Not necessarily due to any sense of prestige from the award itself. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but it does to me.

[Harry Tic]

For me, the Eagle isn't about having that one award. It is about the experience a boy goes through to get it. The diverse experiences of trying a number of things. It doesn't hurt to have had some minimal first aid training. Learning about citizenship, emergency preparedness, family life, personal finance, how to swim, etc., are all good things. Exposure to a variety of experiences through the various merit badges is nice to try new things and see what you like. And doing an Eagle project is a good experience to learn some organizational and leadership skills.

Bingo. Nothing wrong with the skills, per se. And I like the idea of them actually picking up some life skills, enjoying the journey, etc. But I just attended a court of honor in which tons of 12-year olds got tons of merit badges, like a dozen each. To hear the lists of their accomplishments recited, you would think that these were a bunch of freaking MacArthur geniuses, Heisman trophy winners, and Mother Teresas all rolled into one. Except I know these kids and how they still wipe their boogers on their sleeve. Trust me, they're no geniuses.

The program has been tainted by the achievement structure that's built into it--it encourages ladder climbing and not real skill mastery. And the inexperienced parents that get drafted into serving in scouting--and some of them really do their best--have every incentive to push kids to jump through hoops. The whole thing seems kind of beside the point. Ask any Scout leader that's involved with LDS and non-LDS troops and see what they tell you about the difference between them.

[RC Vikings]

p.s. we've got doctors, lawyers, dentists, and business people on this board. Could someone please entice a BYU admissions officer to join?

http://saas.byu.edu/tools/b4byu/site...--mark-larson/

Mark is a good friend. I'll have to ask him if he knows about CB or CUF next time I talk to him.