FOS just got needier?

[Jeff Lebowski]

http://www.scoutingnews.org/2009/08/...alaries-study/

Make that $1.6M per year.

[Eddie]

With all due respect, this kind of response is insulting to church members and illustrates a corporate mentality. We don't need structure just for the sake of structure. Give us members some credit. All the record-keeping, uniforms, merit badges, ranks, scoutmaster conference, boards of review, courts on honor, scout committees, fundraising, blah blah blah... adds a huge layer of bloated overhead that is completely unnecessary. What is the underlying objective of a church youth program? Provide opportunities for fellowshipping, promoting faith, etc. We would be MORE efficient at those activities if we were to jettison the BSA overhead, not less.



Please no. Going back to the old Duty to God program would be a mistake. It would bore the boys and the leaders to tears. They need to set up a youth program patterned after Venturing. The boys and the leaders plan a set of activities designed around the interests of the youth and then the leaders provide shadow leadership.

Maybe. In some areas.

Having had sons that have participated and having been in the YM program myself a few times over the past 20 years, I have my doubts. The LDS units tend to be the least organized with the least amount of planning, etc.

I want to give some credit - and some do a great job. I like to think that my stint at Scoutmaster was an exception to this rule I spout about. But I have seen more YM programs that are run half-assed and with no planning than I have seen run that are well planned and organized. Frankly (and unfortunately), I don't think many would have any idea what to do without some form of scouting book to look at for direction.

I agree with the concept of implementing some form of venturing. taking it a step further, I think the Laurels and Priests should do more activities together that involve not sitting in the church building together.

[Eddie]

He is doing you a favor with the suggestion as most gays are offended by that expression. "Struggling with same gender attraction" makes it sound like there is something wrong with the person and he/she can overcome it by just trying a little harder. It is kind of like referring to a black person as "struggling with overly black skin pigment".

I understand.

So help me distinguish between the two groups I was attempting to describe. Tell me a better way to say it and I will.

[Eddie]

Make that $1.6M per year.

Did you read the report?

I agree that he is well paid. I don't think he needs to be paid as much as he is. But to say he is making $1.6M doesn't seem to jive with the entire article. Looks to me like it is quite a bit less than that.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Maybe. In some areas.

Having had sons that have participated and having been in the YM program myself a few times over the past 20 years, I have my doubts. The LDS units tend to be the least organized with the least amount of planning, etc.

I want to give some credit - and some do a great job. I like to think that my stint at Scoutmaster was an exception to this rule I spout about. But I have seen more YM programs that are run half-assed and with no planning than I have seen run that are well planned and organized. Frankly (and unfortunately), I don't think many would have any idea what to do without some form of scouting book to look at for direction.

I agree with the concept of implementing some form of venturing. taking it a step further, I think the Laurels and Priests should do more activities together that involve not sitting in the church building together.

You seem to be implying that there is some sort of fundamental character flaw in LDS youth leadership. That is not true. The reason the LDS units are half-assed is because we are forcing all units to engage in BSA whether they want to or not, and we are calling many people to leadership positions when they have little or no interest in BSA. And their attitude is soured further because they recognize that much of what they do is needless overhead. Give them a program that is more efficient and can be customized to local needs and I think you would see a huge difference in attitude.

[Soccermom]

You seem to be implying that there is some sort of fundamental character flaw in LDS youth leadership. That is not true. The reason the LDS units are half-assed is because we are forcing all units to engage in BSA whether they want to or not, and we are calling many people to leadership positions when they have little or no interest in BSA. And their attitude is soured further because they recognize that much of what they do is needless overhead. Give them a program that is more efficient and can be customized to local needs and I think you would see a huge difference in attitude.

I agree with this. I think it is hard to be excited about accepting a calling in YMs. They sure demand a lot. And all the time off those leaders have to take from work, and NOT be with their own families. I have nothing against BSA, but not having it as part of YMs doesn't mean those who want to participate can't. They can join a local troop and pay their dues like anyone else.

[smokymountainrain]

You could find someone to do that job for 80-100k per year.

I'd say that is overstating it a bit, but that 1.6 number is crazy.

[Eddie]

You seem to be implying that there is some sort of fundamental character flaw in LDS youth leadership. That is not true. The reason the LDS units are half-assed is because we are forcing all units to engage in BSA whether they want to or not, and we are calling many people to leadership positions when they have little or no interest in BSA. And their attitude is soured further because they recognize that much of what they do is needless overhead. Give them a program that is more efficient and can be customized to local needs and I think you would see a huge difference in attitude.

Frankly, I think the problem is that we are calling leaders at all. I think we should be asking for volunteers and then "calling" leaders from among those who come forward.

I do agree that for some they are so soured on BSA, scouting, etc., that they will do poorly with it. So what keeps them from doing something else - ANYTHING else with the YM they are responsible for?

When I talk about half-assed I'm not talking about a failure to wear uniforms, hold scoutmaster conferences and courts of honor, etc. In fact, I'm really not talking about "scouting" per se. I'm talking about the number of wards that are planning an activity as an afterthought the week of (sometimes the night before) their activity night. I'm talking about wards that pull out a basketball, football, or frisbee more than once a month because it doesn't require any planning.

I was at an "LDS Church, BSA Relationship" training that some church higher up was doing a Q&A at. He asked the audience "what do you do if the YM don't want to work on the required merit badges". A bunch of different men answered with ideas like encouraging them, teaching them why the merit badges are important, etc. Ultimately his response was "then you DON'T DO THEM!" He went on to emphasis that you plan activities that the YM are interested in.

Adding my own commentary - there is a merit badge for EVERYTHING. You could participate in just about any activity and it would meet some merit badge requirement somewhere.

Now - scouting may limit some activities that they see as high risk. The amount of certifications required to go shooting, for instance, is prohibitive.

But ultimately I believe that saying that you can't plan fun, engaging, interactive activities customized to the local needs because BSA gets in the way is a HUGE cop out.

[Eddie]

I agree with this. I think it is hard to be excited about accepting a calling in YMs. They sure demand a lot. And all the time off those leaders have to take from work, and NOT be with their own families. I have nothing against BSA, but not having it as part of YMs doesn't mean those who want to participate can't. They can join a local troop and pay their dues like anyone else.

I don't see eliminating scouting as reducing the time demand for YM leaders. After all, there is no scouting in YW, and aside from the occasional weekend campout they seem to have nearly the same level of demand as the YM.

Sure - BSA has trainings that might take up more time. But let's be honest, how many LDS scout leaders actually attend many of those?

[Northwestcoug]

Isn't D-HO using them as nouns in that sentence? He uses them as a list of "words," not in a descriptive sense.

I thought Donuthole would have jumped all over this by now.

[pellegrino]

What do you want me to call them?

Some people are gay.

Some people are struggling with it.

I think they are different from each other. Sure, they have some similarities. But I think there are also differences. And the folks I think BSA wouldn't have a problem with are the ones who are struggling with it. I think they would have a problem with folks who have accepted it.

The issue I have here is with the use of the word gender. Gender is yet another one of those words that Mormons use, thinking they know what it means, but they really don't. Solon has already cited the origin of this terminology (I agree ) so I won't go into it much, but the fact remains that Oaks replaces an unseemly word (sex) with one that is politically charged and then justifies its use with tortured and hurtful logic.

Usually when I talk to people, I ask them how I should call them (Joe, or Joseph). I do the same with homosexuals, who in my experience prefer to be referred to as gay, lesbian, homosexual, or where appropriate, bisexual.

If someone is struggling with their identity, then that's a different thing altogether. They probably won't be open with that information and so referring to them as "struggling" seems stupid.

[Jeff Lebowski]

But ultimately I believe that saying that you can't plan fun, engaging, interactive activities customized to the local needs because BSA gets in the way is a HUGE cop out.

Which of course, is not what I said.

I don't see eliminating scouting as reducing the time demand for YM leaders. After all, there is no scouting in YW, and aside from the occasional weekend campout they seem to have nearly the same level of demand as the YM.

I never said it would change the time demand. Rather it would allow leaders to better utilize the time they dedicate to the callings. Efficiency.

Furthermore, the YW program disproves one of the assertions you made earlier. The YW program gets along just fine without imposing an additional layer of "structure" on top of it.

[Soccermom]

I don't see eliminating scouting as reducing the time demand for YM leaders. After all, there is no scouting in YW, and aside from the occasional weekend campout they seem to have nearly the same level of demand as the YM.

Sure - BSA has trainings that might take up more time. But let's be honest, how many LDS scout leaders actually attend many of those?

I think it would minimize the time spent. instead of worrying about Duty to God, priesthood responsibilities, AND Scouts (campouts, awards, Courts of Honors, Committee meetings, trainings, preparations, fundraisers for camps, FOS donation solicitations, etc.), leaders would only have to worry about what the YW leaders deal with. I know they would still be busy, but I do think some of that would be alleviated.

[eldiente]

YM overseas

Having lived in a European and Latin American area where Scouting isn't the "activity arm" of the YM program, I observe simply...... thank goodness for the structure, aims, and methods of Scouting as utilized in the good ol' USA LDS church.

Overseas YM programs struggle mightily (with dedicated and motivated leaders) to have a structured program of any quality.

For all it's warts, BSA provides a turn-key program with eight methods for the betterment of YM. (http://www.nesa.org/methods.html). Advancement and outdoor programs are often cited as "scouting", but in reality those are only two of the eight methods. Focusing solely on those things is detrimental to the bigger picture that is a part of scouting. LDS units are great at focusing on achievement.... we struggle in some of the other areas.

Also, remember that greater than 30% of LDS Scouts are Cub Scout age. What would replace that?

[Northwestcoug]

Also, remember that greater than 30% of LDS Scouts are Cub Scout age. What would replace that?

4H.