The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[falafel]

I don't think its that nobody cares. Its that people don't want to open the door for Trump. That's my personal stance. I think what she had done is outrageous and criminal, but I don't think she'll plunge us into WW3 so I grit my teeth and bear it.

[imanihonjin]

I don't think its that nobody cares. Its that people don't want to open the door for Trump. That's my personal stance. I think what she had done is outrageous and criminal, but I don't think she'll plunge us into WW3 so I grit my teeth and bear it.

Fair enough. I can't accept either one as an acceptable substitute for the other.

[Moliere]

Perhaps we are so desensitized by the Clintons' behavior that BS like this, which is terrible in terms of being even half way believable, isn't really that big a deal.

Yep. It's also why Trump can say stupid things and no one bats an eye anymore.

[Commando]

Well, it's an almost certainty that if the illegal alien hadn't been in the country, their child would be alive. The "stat" you cite is irrelevant to their situation: it's not like their deaths were foreordained and a U.S. citizen would have been compelled to do the job. The question is whether Trump (or any president and congress) had been in office and been serious about securing the border, enforcing immigration laws, and ending illegal immigration, would we have enough of a handle on the situation that these illegals wouldn't be here? I tend to think yes, the situation could be vastly improved and many of their children would be alive in this hypothetical situation.

Uh... correct, the people were actually killed and it was sad. My problem is with this rhetorical device Trump is using. You could parade a group of moms on stage whose kids were killed by any common denominator, slap a name on em like "Angel Moms" and the room will be rife with Heil Hitlers before you know it. What about moms of kids killed by Mormons? Moms of kids killed on amusement park rides when they jumped a fence to retrieve a fallen hat? He had to reach pretty far and wide to round out that panel, by the way-- only 1 or 2 were actually from Phoenix and I did hear the applause die out a little when that one mom said, "...and my son was shot by a Russian whose visa had expired." WTF? By the way, illegal immigration from Mexico is at net zero. What a problem we have on our hands- Trump says it so it must be true! Let's get started on the great wall of china Mexico is paying for! Clearly this asshole has zero ideas so he relies on emotional appeals. Looks like it worked a little, didn't it?

Also, if you wanted a candidate who would bend over backwards to try to enforce the laws already on the books- which Trump insists are sufficient, Obama is your guy. He deported more people than any president in history and proved little more than what we already knew-- yes, the immigration system is broken. Thanks for spending billions of our $ to demonstrate that.

[beefytee]

How about a trump campaign against speeders? If everyone went the speed limit it would save thousands of lives. Many times more than getting rid of illegals. I haven't heard him talk about that safety issue yet.

[old_gregg]

umm, ok

i think the right conclusion here is that you're a racist dork afraid of the boogeyman of mexican children.

[venkman]

i think the right conclusion here is that you're a racist dork afraid of the boogeyman of mexican children.

wrong, asshole

[venkman]

Uh... correct, the people were actually killed and it was sad. My problem is with this rhetorical device Trump is using. You could parade a group of moms on stage whose kids were killed by any common denominator, slap a name on em like "Angel Moms" and the room will be rife with Heil Hitlers before you know it. What about moms of kids killed by Mormons? Moms of kids killed on amusement park rides when they jumped a fence to retrieve a fallen hat? He had to reach pretty far and wide to round out that panel, by the way-- only 1 or 2 were actually from Phoenix and I did hear the applause die out a little when that one mom said, "...and my son was shot by a Russian whose visa had expired." WTF? By the way, illegal immigration from Mexico is at net zero. What a problem we have on our hands- Trump says it so it must be true! Let's get started on the great wall of china Mexico is paying for! Clearly this asshole has zero ideas so he relies on emotional appeals. Looks like it worked a little, didn't it?

Also, if you wanted a candidate who would bend over backwards to try to enforce the laws already on the books- which Trump insists are sufficient, Obama is your guy. He deported more people than any president in history and proved little more than what we already knew-- yes, the immigration system is broken. Thanks for spending billions of our $ to demonstrate that.

First, all of these facts you cite are either disputable or misleading/don't tell the real story. I wasn't a fan of bringing all of those parents up there...the emotional appeal doesn't really work for me. That doesn't change the fact that these crimes didn't need to happen if our government had been doing it's job. You obviously don't think it's an issue. Fine, vote for Hillary or that fake libertarian Gary Johnson. BTW, it's not my top issue either, but the question of whether we have a right to control or borders and decide who enters is pretty fundamental.

[old_gregg]

wrong, asshole

sorry about your racism and general dimwittedness brother

[venkman]

sorry about your racism and general dimwittedness brother

I was gonna say we ought to grab some non-alcoholic beverages and have a face to face nuanced conversation about immigration policy, etc. That's probably not a good idea at this point.

[Commando]

First, all of these facts you cite are either disputable or misleading/don't tell the real story. I wasn't a fan of bringing all of those parents up there...the emotional appeal doesn't really work for me. That doesn't change the fact that these crimes didn't need to happen if our government had been doing it's job. You obviously don't think it's an issue. Fine, vote for Hillary or that fake libertarian Gary Johnson. BTW, it's not my top issue either, but the question of whether we have a right to control or borders and decide who enters is pretty fundamental.

Which facts? The Pew study that says illegal immigration is net zero? Given a choice between Pew and lying-ass Trump, I'm pretty secure in my sources of information. And it is a hard fact that Obama has deported more people than any other president in history. That's a number, not an opinion, so it's definitely not disputable, sorry.

And if you don't like emotional appeals, on what basis are you being persuaded by Trump? He has zero answers, my friend, ZERO. Immigration may not be your top issue, but it is mine and I know that the dumb shit Trump says is only dangerous both to us and the people crossing our borders unchecked. I'm more concerned about victims of human trafficking and folks having to live their lives in the shadows to support their families. Trump wants us to worry about the border and go along with his fake outrage and fake wall idea by drumming up maximum outrage over the infinitesimally small number of people killed by people who crossed the border without inspection or whose status has expired, are you kidding me? Let's worry about bee stings because I haven't looked it up but I know that's a way bigger hazard.

If you want to start somewhere in fixing the 'problem' we have with immigration, look into the economic incentives various markets within the U.S. knowingly provide these heads of families to keep risking their lives crossing the wilderness so they can live their lives doing our slave labor and living their lives under legal duress. Look into the ways the CIA ruined Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador and created a state where people are fleeing the conditions in their country. The surge of those people are asylum applicants and enter under the charge of CBP- not "illegal aliens" as right wing dummies like to scream. Not sure what conversations you are having, but there is never a question of whether we have a right to control our borders and decide who enters. It's that the issue has been handled so poorly over the past 30 years and we've been so unwilling to pass real reform that we have no choice and we are subject to the results of our shitty decisions to put cheap lettuce ahead of human dignity and border sovereignty.

Finally, for Trump to even make any suggestions about how to fix the porous border is beyond comical. He is so under-informed about the issue it's disgusting. He proposes to send everyone back before re-entering with proper inspection. Tell me, Donald, how that is different from the mass deportation policy that was roundly made fun of? Do you propose hiring and training 50k new department of State foreign service officers and building four new consulates in Sonora, D.F., Baja California, and Chihuahua to handle the surge of Mexican applicants alone? Are you planning on eliminating the visa bulletin quotas that currently have U.S. citizen sibling applications from Mexico at about a 20-year wait? He also proposes to get rid of DACA, known to Sean Hannity as 'Obama's Amnesty' but what it really is is an executive act of prosecutorial discretion on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, whose tangible benefit is a 2-year work permit for people who were brought to the U.S. as children before 07, grew up here, and graduated or are attending high school. A work permit is a pittance for Dreamers who really should be getting their lawful permanent residency. Trump wants to punish those kids and take away everything they have- wonder how that works in his favor for advancing society and reducing criminal activity. What a piece of work. He is the ultimate dog-whistle candidate for the White Supremacist movement.

[venkman]

Which facts? The Pew study that says illegal immigration is net zero? Given a choice between Pew and lying-ass Trump, I'm pretty secure in my sources of information. And it is a hard fact that Obama has deported more people than any other president in history. That's a number, not an opinion, so it's definitely not disputable, sorry.

And if you don't like emotional appeals, on what basis are you being persuaded by Trump? He has zero answers, my friend, ZERO. Immigration may not be your top issue, but it is mine and I know that the dumb shit Trump says is only dangerous both to us and the people crossing our borders unchecked. I'm more concerned about victims of human trafficking and folks having to live their lives in the shadows to support their families. Trump wants us to worry about the border and go along with his fake outrage and fake wall idea by drumming up maximum outrage over the infinitesimally small number of people killed by people who crossed the border without inspection or whose status has expired, are you kidding me? Let's worry about bee stings because I haven't looked it up but I know that's a way bigger hazard.

If you want to start somewhere in fixing the 'problem' we have with immigration, look into the economic incentives various markets within the U.S. knowingly provide these heads of families to keep risking their lives crossing the wilderness so they can live their lives doing our slave labor and living their lives under legal duress. Look into the ways the CIA ruined Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador and created a state where people are fleeing the conditions in their country. The surge of those people are asylum applicants and enter under the charge of CBP- not "illegal aliens" as right wing dummies like to scream. Not sure what conversations you are having, but there is never a question of whether we have a right to control our borders and decide who enters. It's that the issue has been handled so poorly over the past 30 years and we've been so unwilling to pass real reform that we have no choice and we are subject to the results of our shitty decisions to put cheap lettuce ahead of human dignity and border sovereignty.

Finally, for Trump to even make any suggestions about how to fix the porous border is beyond comical. He is so under-informed about the issue it's disgusting. He proposes to send everyone back before re-entering with proper inspection. Tell me, Donald, how that is different from the mass deportation policy that was roundly made fun of? Do you propose hiring and training 50k new department of State foreign service officers and building four new consulates in Sonora, D.F., Baja California, and Chihuahua to handle the surge of Mexican applicants alone? Are you planning on eliminating the visa bulletin quotas that currently have U.S. citizen sibling applications from Mexico at about a 20-year wait? He also proposes to get rid of DACA, known to Sean Hannity as 'Obama's Amnesty' but what it really is is an executive act of prosecutorial discretion on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, whose tangible benefit is a 2-year work permit for people who were brought to the U.S. as children before 07, grew up here, and graduated or are attending high school. A work permit is a pittance for Dreamers who really should be getting their lawful permanent residency. Trump wants to punish those kids and take away everything they have- wonder how that works in his favor for advancing society and reducing criminal activity. What a piece of work. He is the ultimate dog-whistle candidate for the White Supremacist movement.

I get the criticism of Trump. I never thought I'd be supportive of him. I'm for Trump mostly for what he isn't. He's not a globalist and unlike Bernie, not a socialist. The making them leave and then come back is dumb and not going to happen anyway. I am hopeful that he would stop TPP and other sovereignty destroying "free trade" agreements. NAFTA, while good for transnational corporations, has been pretty disastrous for workers on both sides of the border. Sure, Mexico got a boost with new manufacturing plants, but it devastated the corn market and threw poor Mexican farmers off their land. I get why many are risking all to come here. I'm hope both countries can rid themselves of this monstrosity, bring power back to the people, and regain their sovereignty and independence. BTW, NAFTA is child's play compared to TPP. I don't know if Trump is the answer, but I know the Democrat and Republican establishments aren't, and they're both against him. The root of our problems are beyond mere ideological differences.

[Commando]

Well, I don't think the "establishments" are against him because he's some savvy wildcat about to take the system back for the people. I think the fear isn't losing power, but having a guy like that w access to the nukes.

[beefytee]

NAFTA, while good for transnational corporations, has been pretty disastrous for workers on both sides of the border.

That's just not true. It have been a net benefit and far from disastrous. While the US manufacturing workforce has suffered, most of that has been due to technology and not free trade. The fact of the matter is, much like Hollywood video and Blockbuster and their jobs aren't coming back, neither are manufacturing jobs, no matter how isolated the US choses to becomes.

[venkman]

That's just not true. It have been a net benefit and far from disastrous. While the US manufacturing workforce has suffered, most of that has been due to technology and not free trade. The fact of the matter is, much like Hollywood video and Blockbuster and their jobs aren't coming back, neither are manufacturing jobs, no matter how isolated the US choses to becomes.

No one's talking about isolationism.