Obama's Health Plan

[ERCougar]

You accepted the mission. Deal with it.

tooblue, come back and educate me on this when you're producing art while your patrons spit, bleed, vomit, shit, and piss on you, while they call you a piece of shit and threaten your family as they come off their meth-induced rage, while they threaten to sue you for any bad outcome that obviously would be due to your incompetence and not their 3-pack a day smoking habit, all this on their 3 am schedule, not yours, while others spend months combing over and analyzing a decision you had 30 sleep-deprived seconds to make. And when you've gone to four years of expensive grad school (with 100 hour weeks for those last two years) and five years of 80-hour weeks, sending your personal life to hell, for the "privilege" and the "mission". I'd take massive paycuts I could simply treat people who wanted to be helped, appreciated my effort, and I could do it on a 9-to-5 schedule without 200K of debt to pay off. And I wouldn't have to deal with idiots who belittle my efforts with their talk of "mission".

Hope that was coherent. Probably not, but this level of ignorance and entitlement pisses me off to no end.

[byu71]

Given your explanation, you should ask yourself then, why you chose "illegal" as your go-to. Having a granddaughter who is "undocumented" is no insurance policy against racism......not at all....history is full of people who have "their" Other.

I never mentioned my education...you did. Read the words I typed, I don't take issue with the PC-ness of "illegal," I take issue with its context and its significance to you. You have heard these things about illegals costing more...I provided a link that gives a South Carolina perspective on the issue. The findings of that commission are not unlike the findings of other states. The perception is that people go to ERs to get free health care....the reality is that non-citizens or whatever else we decide to call them tomorrow, typically pay cash for their care. Cash. I know this because I have read and not relied on talking heads for my political opinions, and yes, I am assuming that you have.

Even though I don't completely believe you, I recognize that I cannot know how you meant what I think you meant, so:

I apologize for calling you an asshole and a racist. My apology is sincere. There is no way I can know for sure what you meant, and therefore, given your explanation, no matter my opinion of its veracity, I must accept it at face value. I apologize.

Thanks. I will point out the link was provided after calling me a racist asshole.
I am not sure someone else would provide another link, but I am really not into the debate anyway. By the way her mother has referred to her and herself and her (the mothers) sister as an "illegal". The mother is no longer, "undocumented". I wouldn't be surprised if I told her I will now refer to her as "undocumented" if I ever use the term, she would ask why. Perhaps she is not as sophiscated and knowledgeable about things as us "liberal white folks". Since I wasn't worried about offending them by using the term, how could I know that on this board I would raise such ire.

[wuapinmon]

Thanks. I will point out the link was provided after calling me a racist asshole.
I am not sure someone else would provide another link, but I am really not into the debate anyway. By the way her mother has referred to her and herself and her (the mothers) sister as an "illegal". The mother is no longer, "undocumented". I wouldn't be surprised if I told her I will now refer to her as "undocumented" if I ever use the term, she would ask why. Perhaps she is not as sophiscated and knowledgeable about things as us "liberal white folks". Since I wasn't worried about offending them by using the term, how could I know that on this board I would raise such ire.

Again,

I wasn't taking issue with the term, but the disdain for the "Other" I perceived in the term. It wasn't the word, but how I interpreted your use of the word. You could have said Mexican citizens, the effect would've been the same on me.

[RobinFinderson]

tooblue, come back and educate me on this when you're producing art while your patrons spit, bleed, vomit, shit, and piss on you, while they...

Nurses's aids have it way worse when it comes to getting spit, bleeded, vomited, shit, and pissed on. I wanted to be a doctor for a while, so I spent a few weeks one summer working as a nurses' aid... ugggh. What a nasty thankless job. One long day of shit mopping, sponge bathing, colostomy bag changing, saggy testicles dangling in diarrhea soup wiping, sputem scrubbing, bed making, fat people hoisting, force feeding, and vagina cleaning drudgery. I hated that job.

[byu71]

Again,

I wasn't taking issue with the term, but the disdain for the "Other" I perceived in the term. It wasn't the word, but how I interpreted your use of the word. You could have said Mexican citizens, the effect would've been the same on me.

OK, I can see where asshole comes from, but how do you get to racist. If indeed it was about a perceived disdain I have for someone getting free healthcare, why is that racist. Poor white people get free health care don't they? I watched the President last night. I watch some pundit talk. They were talking health care and they were talking costs of free health care for undocumented, I think though they used the term illegal and it was CNN, but maybe Fox. That was on my mind.

If they had been talking about unwed mothers, perhaps that is what I would have used.

Here is where you may have me. I am old school. If pushed in a corner I would guess most people who get free health care could find a better way, maybe not. That feeling perhaps does qualify me as an "asshole", but not racist.

It isn't so much I mind being called it on a board like this. Triple D did once. It is just with me the term has become so loosely used that it's real impact when calling out a "true racist" loses it's impact. A real racist is a despicable person, not someone who doesn't use the same terminology as I do.

[ERCougar]

Nurses's aids have it way worse when it comes to getting spit, bleeded, vomited, shit, and pissed on. I wanted to be a doctor for a while, so I spent a few weeks one summer working as a nurses' aid... ugggh. What a nasty thankless job. One long day of shit mopping, sponge bathing, colostomy bag changing, saggy testicles dangling in diarrhea soup wiping, sputem scrubbing, bed making, fat people hoisting, force feeding, and vagina cleaning drudgery. I hated that job.

I do plenty of all of that every shift. But don't worry about paying me--it's all part of the glorious mission!

[RobinFinderson]

I do plenty of all of that every shift. But don't worry about paying me--it's all part of the glorious mission!

Nasty! Why don't you just get a nurses' aid to do that stuff for you? I was doing this job at a nursing home in Montana, wiping breast boogers out from under paper-thin 80-year old breasts that sagged to the lap, all for $12/hour (good money in Montana, even today). I probably saw a real MD twice the whole time I worked there.

[ERCougar]

Nasty! Why don't you just get a nurses' aid to do that stuff for you? I was doing this job at a nursing home in Montana, wiping breast boogers out from under paper-thin 80-year old breasts that sagged to the lap, all for $12/hour (good money in Montana, even today). I probably saw a real MD twice the whole time I worked there.

Different setting. You can run a NH with nurses aids; you can't run an ER with nurses' aids. I certainly do less than they do, but if I pawned everything off on aids, things would come to a halt pretty quickly (and I wouldn't be very popular).

[Color Me Badd Fan]

It hasn't reached n-word status yet, but it is heading in that direction. It will soon be a total anachronism. When right-wing blowhards use the term "illegal alien" they do so intentionally, in the same spirit they use the word "Democrat Party" to piss off members of the Democratic Party. They are throwing gasoline onto the fire. The preferred term is definitely "undocumented."

At best, it will reach the equivalent status of calling an Asian an "oriental." The reference to someone as an alien is a technical term that's been used for years. And there's a lot more support for stemming illegal immigration than there is against it. "Undocumented" doesn't exactly tell the whole story and "illegal" is bit more explanatory. Hell, even California voted in support of prop 187 in 1994, hardly ancient history.

Not to sound "but I really like black people"-ish, but fwiw I think the furor over illegal immigration is a red herring and in general illegal aliens have probably overall added more wealth than they've taken away. To Bush's credit, he never made it a point to demonize these people and tried to create a liberal guest worker program. It's the illegal nature of the immigration that forces these people to often operate outside of normal channels where they're preyed upon by various criminal elements. An open system that incentivizes (spelling) these immigrants to enter into the program legally would be better for all parties involved.

As a sidenote, I had a couple undergrad professors in the business department refer to Asian as "orientals" or at least to Asian food as "oriental food." I can't totally remember. I found it both ignorant but pretty amusing at the same time- here are Professors referring to Asians as orientals. I remember my dad talking about how that was bad form at some point in the 80s.

[BlueHair]

I think insurance companies are responsible for driving up the cost of services. Hospitals know that they can charge whatever they want because the insurance companies will pay it and pass along the charge to the consumer in the form of increased premiums. It's a racket. We wouldn't be in this position if there wasn't health insurance. Think about it. If you went to the doctor and were billed $40 for a Q-tip and $50 for two Tylenol, you would never pay it. We don't complain about the charges because all we care about is how much of it comes out of our pocket. The hospitals and insurance companies have been fleecing us for decades.

High deductible plans would be great if we totally did away with 80/20 type plans. People would be forced to shop for cheaper services and this would create competition. I don't want a high deductible plan right now because the 80/20 plans keep costs high for the services I would be paying out of pocket.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I think insurance companies are responsible for driving up the cost of services. Hospitals know that they can charge whatever they want because the insurance companies will pay it and pass along the charge to the consumer in the form of increased premiums. It's a racket. We wouldn't be in this position if there wasn't health insurance. Think about it. If you went to the doctor and were billed $40 for a Q-tip and $50 for two Tylenol, you would never pay it. We don't complain about the charges because all we care about is how much of it comes out of our pocket. The hospitals and insurance companies have been fleecing us for decades.

High deductible plans would be great if we totally did away with 80/20 type plans. People would be forced to shop for cheaper services and this would create competition. I don't want a high deductible plan right now because the 80/20 plans keep costs high for the services I would be paying out of pocket.

Most dental plans cover much less as far as dollar amounts and far fewer people have dental insurance as those who have medical insurance. Low and behold, at least it seems to me, you're not gouged nearly as much. Then again, I have a brother who's a dentist as well as a bro-in-law so I haven't ever really paid much for dental appointments/procedures.

The collective nature of group health insurance is a big part of the problem in that the younger and healthier subsidize the older, fatter, smokier people. Over the course of the past 3 years at my employment, approximately $28,600 has been paid out for insurance premiums to cover at first just me (I was single the first year), then my wife and then my child. Convienently, my bastard health plan forces me to first pay the full deductible whenever any hospital visit occurs (probably pretty common) and then they pay 80% of the rest. When my wife had our child, I probably ended up paying something like $2,500.00 out of pocket and the health insurance I believe covered around $3,000 to $4,000 (I can't remember the exact number).

If I had to do it all over again, I would have approached my employer, asked for a $4,800 raise (half the insurance premium paid by my employer) and then got an HSA individual plan with a high deductible. All parties, except for the insurance company, would have been better off.

Until I have a second kid, this STILL makes financial sense to me, but my wife and I plan on having a second kid soon and the group plan as well as a supplemental plan makes the most financial sense at this point.

Group plans are much more tax favored than individual plans. IMO, high deductible plans should be more encouraged because it make the end consumer more attentive to the end costs.

[tooblue]

you are clueless as usual on this subject

I'm bang on as usual. Nail on the head, bullseye. By the way you often state that the market should decide. Well, it did. The market elected Barack Obama President!

[tooblue]

tooblue, come back and educate me on this when you're producing art while your patrons spit, bleed, vomit, shit, and piss on you, while they call you a piece of shit and threaten your family as they come off their meth-induced rage, while they threaten to sue you for any bad outcome that obviously would be due to your incompetence and not their 3-pack a day smoking habit, all this on their 3 am schedule, not yours, while others spend months combing over and analyzing a decision you had 30 sleep-deprived seconds to make. And when you've gone to four years of expensive grad school (with 100 hour weeks for those last two years) and five years of 80-hour weeks, sending your personal life to hell, for the "privilege" and the "mission". I'd take massive paycuts I could simply treat people who wanted to be helped, appreciated my effort, and I could do it on a 9-to-5 schedule without 200K of debt to pay off. And I wouldn't have to deal with idiots who belittle my efforts with their talk of "mission".

Hope that was coherent. Probably not, but this level of ignorance and entitlement pisses me off to no end.

Well you know what, I too was pissed and I moved to a country where I didn't have to take a loan out to have a baby in the hospital because I was motivated and worked two jobs, went to school full-time, made too much money and didn't qualify for medicare or whatever it's called. I was pissed when the lady at the hospital told me we could take out a loan ... to have a baby! I was pissed at the fact I paid $300 a month to Blue Cross / Blue shield for health coverage -- coverage that didn't cover the cost of having a baby!

Now educate me -- how much do I owe you for your choices!

[tooblue]

No amount is too high when a good doctor or a good lawyer saves your ass.

So long as you can afford one.

[RobinFinderson]

Well you know what, I too was pissed and I moved to a country where I didn't have to take a loan out to have a baby in the hospital because I was motivated and worked two jobs, went to school full-time, made too much money and didn't qualify for medicare or whatever it's called. I was pissed when the lady at the hospital told me we could take out a loan ... to have a baby! I was pissed at the fact O paid $300 a month to Blue Cross / Blue shield for health coverage -- coverage that didn't cover the cost of having a baby!

Now educate me -- how much do I owe you for your choices!

This is the problem for doctors. Medicine has lost so much of its prior respect, simply because the gatekeepers, insurance companies, have turned doctors into their henchmen. Seriously, the public perception of doctors has diminished to about lawyer status. The doctors have a lot of work to do to recoup their reputation.