Obama's Health Plan

[BlueHair]

How does a market vote?

The people voted. People are the market.

I hate government. I hate that we get taxed to pay for roads, public schools, national parks, museums, stadiums, libraries, medicare, bridges, universities. I want a tiny government that does very little for it's citizens and in return taxes very little. This is never going to happen though. Republicans are determined to make sure everyone lives their religious rules. They want to tell you what you can eat, drink, smoke. They want to legislate your morals. They want to make sure their churches get funded with tax free donations. Liberals want to make sure nobody gets rich. They want to take away economic freedom in return for social justice. I absolutely hate both. I am just tired of being stuck in the middle, getting the worst from both parties. If we can't have a free society, I at least want some healthcare.

[byu71]

There is no right or wrong reason for becoming a doctor or lawyer or even an artist. Some of the best Doctors, Lawyers, and even Artists are in it for the money.

I would say most people who are in highly competitive or stressful jobs are in it for the money. I am not saying they can't also love their jobs, but the money has to be high on the priority list.

I know if it wasn't for the money, I would like to do something like be a college professor.

[BlueHair]

I would say most people who are in highly competitive or stressful jobs are in it for the money. I am not saying they can't also love their jobs, but the money has to be high on the priority list.

I know if it wasn't for the money, I would like to do something like be a college professor.

I agree. Money is one of the best motivators.

[byu71]

I agree. Money is one of the best motivators.

One of the most misunderstood scriptures is the one quoted that "money is the route of all evil". It is misunderstood because of how often it is misquoted.

[Mormon Red Death]

btw... I looked at the costs when my son was born (12 years after yours was) and I adjusted backwards for inflation. The total amount for your son being born in 1995 was in the neighbor hood of $2,500. This includes Anesthesia and circumcision and all other aspects of baby care (Tests, hospital stay etc..). (Take off $900 if your wife did the birth without an epidural. For this argument we will leave it in).

Now lets say the insurance company you were paying 350 a month covered 50% of the costs (I think this claim is bogus its probably 80%) then you would have a patient residual of $1,250. While that is a decent amount of money that is certainly not sending you to bankruptcy. Especially since almost every hospital will offer payment plans at 0% interest it would be $100 a month for a year.

Coincide that with the increased taxes you pay for living in Canada. I am willing to bet that you pay more than that amount in taxes

Next step... Tooblue tells MRD how his numbers are all wrong and the mean insurance company really wasnt an insurance company but a money hog who never paid out claims while they tapped their fingers together and say "excellent"

[Mormon Red Death]

One of the most misunderstood scriptures is the one quoted that "money is the route of all evil". It is misunderstood because of how often it is misquoted.

The scripture says the Love of Money is the root of all evil

[ERCougar]

I know if it wasn't for the money, I would like to do something like be a college professor.

AMEN!
My point in describing some of the crappy (pardon the pun) aspects of my job is not to say that my job is the only one that sucks at times, it's that there is a reason you have to pay doctors to do what they do. Not everything is Marcus Welby helping appreciative patient to get better. In fact, most of it's not, and if it were, we'd be happy to do it for peanuts (minus the student loans, long education, and malpractice risk, of course). RF's example points this out. RF's bright and could certainly handle anything med school could throw at him. But he got into something that wasn't so fun or rewarding and decided that it wasn't worth it. Some of us have decided that it's still worth it, but with the compensation package that comes with it. That's not to say that money is the sole motivator--there are plenty of quicker and more pleasant ways to get rich--but it's part of the package, and if you remove it, you will lose good doctors to other fields, period.

[TripletDaddy]

One of the most misunderstood scriptures is the one quoted that "money is the route of all evil". It is misunderstood because of how often it is misquoted.

I agree that the passage is often misquoted.

[KillerDog]

What is the purpose of life? We can create a society that facilitates the stuff of life. If we were to look at our culture, and try to figure out what we as a people are about, one would probably conclude that life is about buying, selling and accumulating elaborate dust collection systems. We don't need more stuff. We need families, time for people to cherish loved ones, clean air and water, art and music... seriously, what freaking mess this world has become as a result of making and selling horrible stuff. This culture needs to change.

I could also ask, what is the purpose of insurance? I think insurance is intended to pay for events that can't be planned for. Children can be planned for. You have 9 months at a minimum to plan for having a child. Why should insurance cover that? That's like having insurance cover in vitro or rhinoplasty.

[ERCougar]

I could also ask, what is the purpose of insurance? I think insurance is intended to pay for events that can't be planned for. Children can be planned for. You have 9 months at a minimum to plan for having a child. Why should insurance cover that? That's like having insurance cover in vitro or rhinoplasty.

Agreed.
Americans (and to a much larger extent, Europeans and Canadians) have lost sight of this. I'm definitely OK with a safety net, but when the safety net includes everyone, with no regard for cost on the part of the consumer, it's going to be dang expensive. Just like a zero-deductible automobile insurance policy can be dang expensive.

That's why my plan rocks. It restores the idea of "insurance".

[byu71]

Insurance is also in place to protect assets for heirs against being wiped out by health care costs. I know there is the moral dilema, if we can keep someone alive, we do it. I don't know how you resolve this. I do wonder though what the cost is of keeping people who have no quality of life left, alive.

As I said before in this thread, what would be wrong with once you hit age 80, you are basically on your own. Health care costs are to be born by the individual person. You can choose to use your assets to keep you alive or you can choose to die and pass on your assets.

I know this presents a moral and ethical dilema, but so will the government running out of money and the ability to borrow it.

[ERCougar]

Insurance is also in place to protect assets for heirs against being wiped out by health care costs. I know there is the moral dilema, if we can keep someone alive, we do it. I don't know how you resolve this. I do wonder though what the cost is of keeping people who have no quality of life left, alive.

As I said before in this thread, what would be wrong with once you hit age 80, you are basically on your own. Health care costs are to be born by the individual person. You can choose to use your assets to keep you alive or you can choose to die and pass on your assets.

I know this presents a moral and ethical dilema, but so will the government running out of money and the ability to borrow it.

This is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. Anecdotally, I have heard from European physicians that end-of-life expectations are very different than here. In general, death is seen much more as an expected phase of life than something to be fought. I think Americans are coming around on this. Slowly.

I kind of like your 80 yo cutoff.

[KillerDog]

Insurance is also in place to protect assets for heirs against being wiped out by health care costs. I know there is the moral dilema, if we can keep someone alive, we do it. I don't know how you resolve this. I do wonder though what the cost is of keeping people who have no quality of life left, alive.

As I said before in this thread, what would be wrong with once you hit age 80, you are basically on your own. Health care costs are to be born by the individual person. You can choose to use your assets to keep you alive or you can choose to die and pass on your assets.

I know this presents a moral and ethical dilema, but so will the government running out of money and the ability to borrow it.

I wonder if the aging population brings on problems of cost increase that are only exacerbated by improved medical technology and its associated cost. 50 years ago the best solution for a person with a bad heart was not as costly as the best solution today. I'm curious why no one has created a B level insurance plan. It think it might make sense to allow people to pay lower premiums and not get A level care unless they pay for it themselves.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

This is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. Anecdotally, I have heard from European physicians that end-of-life expectations are very different than here. In general, death is seen much more as an expected phase of life than something to be fought. I think Americans are coming around on this. Slowly.

I kind of like your 80 yo cutoff.

Doctors obviously death from a much more clinical perspective, at least that's what I've noticed about my brother. I agree that Americans are probably going to have to come around to the European way of thinking. It probably cost an insane amount of money to keep Terry Shiavo alive for all those years and to what purpose? And there are also countless examples of older people hanging on by virtue of costly procedures for the possibility of having a low quality of life for a very limited period of time.

My grandmother had a stroke, and my uncle didn't find her until a long time afterwards slumped down in her house. My grandmother was brought to the hospital and put on some life support devices and she had a limited chance to be able to get off the life support at some future point in time but her quality of life would have been absolutely horrible. My uncle and dad decided she wouldn't have wanted that at all, they had a health care POA and she was taken off the life support.

[tooblue]

The people voted. People are the market.

I hate government. I hate that we get taxed to pay for roads, public schools, national parks, museums, stadiums, libraries, medicare, bridges, universities. I want a tiny government that does very little for it's citizens and in return taxes very little. This is never going to happen though. Republicans are determined to make sure everyone lives their religious rules. They want to tell you what you can eat, drink, smoke. They want to legislate your morals. They want to make sure their churches get funded with tax free donations. Liberals want to make sure nobody gets rich. They want to take away economic freedom in return for social justice. I absolutely hate both. I am just tired of being stuck in the middle, getting the worst from both parties. If we can't have a free society, I at least want some healthcare.

Well said. The market has spoken.