Obama's Health Plan

[Mormon Red Death]

Here is the New York Time's peace on it.

Guys like Robin and Tooblue will think its a great idea because they don't understand economics. I never thought National Health Insurance would happen but its looking more and more likely now.

Doctors and Hospitals... get ready to have your pay cut by 30%.

Here's my prediction of the order of events.

1. Obama's plan passes.
2. We go a couple years side by side and more and more companies move to the National program because its cheaper.
3. Most Health Insurers go out of business. Only those that offer premium services and premium prices (IE only PAC, SU and Creekster can afford) are left.
4. Some doctors decide only to accept cash or premium insurance leaving a logjam for those who can't afford the premium services
5. Even if the government doesnt change their current price structure for Medicare its still 30% Less than what hospitals get from BCBS or Humana. With more people on the plan they spend need to spend more to keep the structure secure.
6. Our 1.9% tax for Medicare double or triples to meet the new demand for services
7. To cut costs the government starts to ration health care like in Canada
8. Incentive for New procedures and drugs are cut so medical tech progress is stifled.
9. People get used to the "right" to government subsidized health care and will not change systems without being fear mongered by socialist idiots.

[BlueHair]

Here is the New York Time's peace on it.

Guys like Robin and Tooblue will think its a great idea because they don't understand economics. I never thought National Health Insurance would happen but its looking more and more likely now.

Doctors and Hospitals... get ready to have your pay cut by 30%.

Here's my prediction of the order of events.

1. Obama's plan passes.
2. We go a couple years side by side and more and more companies move to the National program because its cheaper.
3. Most Health Insurers go out of business. Only those that offer premium services and premium prices (IE only PAC, SU and Creekster can afford) are left.
4. Some doctors decide only to accept cash or premium insurance leaving a logjam for those who can't afford the premium services
5. Even if the government doesnt change their current price structure for Medicare its still 30% Less than what hospitals get from BCBS or Humana. With more people on the plan they spend need to spend more to keep the structure secure.
6. Our 1.9% tax for Medicare double or triples to meet the new demand for services
7. To cut costs the government starts to ration health care like in Canada
8. Incentive for New procedures and drugs are cut so medical tech progress is stifled.
9. People get used to the "right" to government subsidized health care and will not change systems without being fear mongered by socialist idiots.

Who knows? You might be right about this. The current system would probably end up about the same way. The costs are increasing so fast that only the few you mentioned in your post will be able to afford the premiums in the next few years. Hell, I can't afford the premiums. My health insurance is more than my mortgage.

The only reason something like this is being proposed is the current system is so bad.

[il Padrino Ute]

Here is the New York Time's peace on it.

Guys like Robin and Tooblue will think its a great idea because they don't understand economics. I never thought National Health Insurance would happen but its looking more and more likely now.

Doctors and Hospitals... get ready to have your pay cut by 30%.

Here's my prediction of the order of events.

1. Obama's plan passes.
2. We go a couple years side by side and more and more companies move to the National program because its cheaper.
3. Most Health Insurers go out of business. Only those that offer premium services and premium prices (IE only PAC, SU and Creekster can afford) are left.
4. Some doctors decide only to accept cash or premium insurance leaving a logjam for those who can't afford the premium services
5. Even if the government doesnt change their current price structure for Medicare its still 30% Less than what hospitals get from BCBS or Humana. With more people on the plan they spend need to spend more to keep the structure secure.
6. Our 1.9% tax for Medicare double or triples to meet the new demand for services
7. To cut costs the government starts to ration health care like in Canada
8. Incentive for New procedures and drugs are cut so medical tech progress is stifled.
9. People get used to the "right" to government subsidized health care and will not change systems without being fear mongered by socialist idiots.

Obama is a socialist bastard. To hell with him.

[TripletDaddy]

If privatized health care fails over time, that will be the market speaking loud and clear.

[il Padrino Ute]

If privatized health care fails over time, that will be the market speaking loud and clear.

This is a fair point; however, is it really the market failing if those of us who don't want nationalized health care are forced to pay for it anyway?

If privatized health care is eventually eliminated for economic reasons, then socialized medicine will be the only option and those who didn't want it but eventually had no alternative but to accept it, then it will become even more expensive to pay for, resulting in even higher taxes.

[TripletDaddy]

This is a fair point; however, is it really the market failing if those of us who don't want nationalized health care are forced to pay for it anyway?

If privatized health care is eventually eliminated for economic reasons, then socialized medicine will be the only option and those who didn't want it but eventually had no alternative but to accept it, then it will become even more expensive to pay for, resulting in even higher taxes.

your taxes already pay for the healthcare of others. Are you saying that our current approach is not socialism?

Under MRD's scenario, nothing prevents the consumer from going out and getting a new job and making more money. If they are unable to do so, that is not the fault of the health care program.

[RobinFinderson]

This is a fair point; however, is it really the market failing if those of us who don't want nationalized health care are forced to pay for it anyway?

If privatized health care is eventually eliminated for economic reasons, then socialized medicine will be the only option and those who didn't want it but eventually had no alternative but to accept it, then it will become even more expensive to pay for, resulting in even higher taxes.

Do you think that pacifists should be able to opt out of paying for war and weapons development?

I like the idea of giving citizens more control over the budget. Pay for the government benefits that you want to support. That would be cool.

[il Padrino Ute]

your taxes already pay for the healthcare of others. Are you saying that our current approach is not socialism?

Under MRD's scenario, nothing prevents the consumer from going out and getting a new job and making more money. If they are unable to do so, that is not the fault of the health care program.

I realize that medicare/medicaid are already a socialized brand of health care. It was around before I started paying taxes and I had no choice.

[il Padrino Ute]

Do you think that pacifists should be able to opt out of paying for war and weapons development?

I like the idea of giving citizens more control over the budget. Pay for the government benefits that you want to support. That would be cool.

I wouldn't have a problem if pacifists could opt out paying for a war; however, like medicare/medicaid, national defense was already in place and funded by taxpayers.

I know that you and DDD both understand that I'm talking about adding more socialist programs for all of us to pay for, but both of you want to get a rise out of me. It won't work.

[RobinFinderson]

I realize that medicare/medicaid are already a socialized brand of health care. It was around before I started paying taxes and I had no choice.

Wouldn't you like to opt out of paying for those programs? Wouldn't you like the option of applying your entire tax to reducing the national debt? Or if you are a hawk, to apply all of your taxes to fund the war in Iraq/Afghanistan? It might be the biggest move ever toward the democratization of our country.

[RobinFinderson]

If privatized health care fails over time, that will be the market speaking loud and clear.

I think DDD lays out the situation perfectly here. If good healthcare becomes something that average working class Americans can not afford, we will vote to socialize it. It is as simple as that. If the free market, or whatever you want to call the existing system, can not provide affordable health care, it WILL be socialized. Americans will only accept the free market model as long as it is working.

[TripletDaddy]

I wouldn't have a problem if pacifists could opt out paying for a war; however, like medicare/medicaid, national defense was already in place and funded by taxpayers.

I know that you and DDD both understand that I'm talking about adding more socialist programs for all of us to pay for, but both of you want to get a rise out of me. It won't work.

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I am simply pointing out the fallacy in claiming that we are heading for socialism.

btw, I am not a fan of nationalized health care, either. But I am less of a fan of these "socialism" rants.

I think robinfinderson's point about opting out of paying for the war if a fair point.

[tooblue]

Here is the New York Time's peace on it.

Guys like Robin and Tooblue will think its a great idea because they don't understand economics. I never thought National Health Insurance would happen but its looking more and more likely now.

Doctors and Hospitals... get ready to have your pay cut by 30%.

Here's my prediction of the order of events.

1. Obama's plan passes.
2. We go a couple years side by side and more and more companies move to the National program because its cheaper.
3. Most Health Insurers go out of business. Only those that offer premium services and premium prices (IE only PAC, SU and Creekster can afford) are left.
4. Some doctors decide only to accept cash or premium insurance leaving a logjam for those who can't afford the premium services
5. Even if the government doesnt change their current price structure for Medicare its still 30% Less than what hospitals get from BCBS or Humana. With more people on the plan they spend need to spend more to keep the structure secure.
6. Our 1.9% tax for Medicare double or triples to meet the new demand for services
7. To cut costs the government starts to ration health care like in Canada
8. Incentive for New procedures and drugs are cut so medical tech progress is stifled.
9. People get used to the "right" to government subsidized health care and will not change systems without being fear mongered by socialist idiots.

I like your two digs ... obviously I'm too stupid to understand economics duh! And we all know that millions of Canadians are suffering or dying each year because of so called rationing !!!!! If you want to be taken more seriously remove the vitriol and the ignorant statements in your above list.

lol

What's more your list almost perfectly describes the current system in the US! How many millions of Americans are uninsured because they can't afford the premiums only PAC, creek et al can afford?

[tooblue]

Who knows? You might be right about this. The current system would probably end up about the same way. The costs are increasing so fast that only the few you mentioned in your post will be able to afford the premiums in the next few years. Hell, I can't afford the premiums. My health insurance is more than my mortgage.

The only reason something like this is being proposed is the current system is so bad.

He already is describing the current system! It's about time the US government makes it official.

[TripletDaddy]

What's more your list almost perfectly describes the current system in the US! How many millions of Americans are uninsured because they can't afford the premiums only PAC, creek et al can afford?

exactly. Doesn't MRD live near Detroit? How many folks in Detroit are fully covered by their own private health insurance?

And how many of us pay the full value of our own health premiums? Employers generally subsidize the costs for us. Our co-pay is less than the full value of the services.

the notion that we don't already have socialized medicine as an offering is totally laughable. we have always had a form of socialized medicine for as long as I have been alive.