Obama's Health Plan

[byu71]

I think that the soaring health care costs are due to people living to long. If you haven't taken care of yourself like getting fat, smoking, drinking, etc., you just shouldn't be allowed to get all the expensive medical treatment available, especially if you can't afford it.

If Joe Jones can afford to pay for a lot of medicine, he can live longer than Jim Jones who can't. What is the difference between that and Joe able to drive a nicer car than Jim.

If we could convince the liberals there is a heaven, maybe they wouldn't be so concerned about people dieing when they should.

I apply this to myself. It is my fault I am overweight. I refuse to take the cholesterol and blood pressure pills my doctor wants me too. I need to suffer the consequences of my bad health habits. Besides if I don't use the insurance for those drugs, maybe some poor illegal can get the drugs.

[Mormon Red Death]

exactly. Doesn't MRD live near Detroit? How many folks in Detroit are fully covered by their own private health insurance?

And how many of us pay the full value of our own health premiums? Employers generally subsidize the costs for us. Our co-pay is less than the full value of the services.

the notion that we don't already have socialized medicine as an offering is totally laughable. we have always had a form of socialized medicine for as long as I have been alive.

Uninsured is rising here in Metro Detroit (It rises with the uemployment rate). However, Most Metro Detroiters have never paid for Health Insurance. The unions saw to it that they never paid ANYTHING for health insurance. Its the chief reason the The big 3 are in the hole they are in.

Yes we have a form of socialized insurance since the sixties... Medicaid and Medicare. One of the major problems with these two programs is that they reimburse substantially less than the private health care payors (Medicaid especially). If you have swing of people who you received on average 40% of charges that you are now getting 30% of charges (keep in mind Medicare rates are not bargained. They are given to the hospital/Doctor and they must accept the arrangement) then you are going to lose a substantial amount of money.

Example,

Lets say a hospital has
30% Medicare
10% Medicaid
50% Private (including BCBS)
10% Patient Pay

Lets also say that the typical reimbursement to charge for the follwoing is
Medicare 30%
Medicaid 20%
Private 40%
Patient Pay 10%

On a 2 billion dollar Gross Revenue system you get:
640 Million in Net Revenue
If you move all the Private Patient Pay to Medicare you now get 580 million in Net revenue. a 60 million dollar decrease. That is a hard hit for a hospital.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Who knows? You might be right about this. The current system would probably end up about the same way. The costs are increasing so fast that only the few you mentioned in your post will be able to afford the premiums in the next few years. Hell, I can't afford the premiums. My health insurance is more than my mortgage.

The only reason something like this is being proposed is the current system is so bad.

I hate to say it, but I find myself increasingly coming down to your point of view. My dad owns and operates a business with about 30 employees and its gotten to the point where health insurance just isn't an option for him to pay as a benefit for most employees. He's increased the amount of compensation to some employees (younger ones) so they could go out and pay for their own, but the group coverage premiums have increased exponentially in recent years. My employer just started having everyone to pay half of the premiums under the group coverage. I briefly considered opting out of the group coverage because I could save $200 a month because my wife and I are both young and we only have one child. The total premium paid between my employer and me is $800 a month- an individual plan with a high deductible would cost me $200. I haven't adequately researched the topic but I keep hearing people say "don't get off the group plan, you'll regret it."

First, I would be willing to bet the premiums of individual high deductible plans haven't increased at nearly the same rate as group insurance plans. A big problem with the current group health insurance system is that it's some kind of half-assed collective effort where the young pay for the middle-aged. The people who actually receive the benefit of health care don't have to pay a higher percentage of their income for the benefit even though they make more money than the young. If the money people paid into the system more closely coordinated with the benefit they got out of it, then people would pay more attention to the costs and look at ways to prevent those costs (e.g. quit downing entire sleaves or oreos). High deductible plans should be the norm much more often. Of course, this paragraph just scratches the surface of the problem, I know it's incredibly more in depth than this.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I realize that medicare/medicaid are already a socialized brand of health care. It was around before I started paying taxes and I had no choice.

Don't old people already account for an overwhelming majority of the health care consumption in this country and isn't this already covered by medicare? How big of an expansion will it be if everyone is covered by some kind of medicare deal? If old people covered by medicare already account for 66% of the consumption, do the costs just go up proportionally for the remainder?

These aren't just rheotorical questions, I really don't know what medicare covers, what percentage of the total health care consumption is covered by medicare, etc. I've literally been to the doctor once in ten years and that was after I wiped out my bike and messed up my ankle about a year ago.

[Mormon Red Death]

I like your two digs ... obviously I'm too stupid to understand economics duh! And we all know that millions of Canadians are suffering or dying each year because of so called rationing !!!!! If you want to be taken more seriously remove the vitriol and the ignorant statements in your above list.

lol

What's more your list almost perfectly describes the current system in the US! How many millions of Americans are uninsured because they can't afford the premiums only PAC, creek et al can afford?

vitriol
Noun
1. language expressing bitterness and hatred

Yes... I have bitterness and hatred of socialistic programs. I don't have bitterness or hatred of tooblue or Robin.

As for Canada they have the luxury of having the US being right down the road and they speak our language. Unfortunately for the USA we don't have a country with 15 times the population and money to do the lion's share of research and development of new drugs and medical procedures.

I know I know... you don't believe that Canada ration's its health care. Any search for articles or research will just be propaganda.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I think that the soaring health care costs are due to people living to long. If you haven't taken care of yourself like getting fat, smoking, drinking, etc., you just shouldn't be allowed to get all the expensive medical treatment available, especially if you can't afford it.

If Joe Jones can afford to pay for a lot of medicine, he can live longer than Jim Jones who can't. What is the difference between that and Joe able to drive a nicer car than Jim.

If we could convince the liberals there is a heaven, maybe they wouldn't be so concerned about people dieing when they should.

I apply this to myself. It is my fault I am overweight. I refuse to take the cholesterol and blood pressure pills my doctor wants me too. I need to suffer the consequences of my bad health habits. Besides if I don't use the insurance for those drugs, maybe some poor illegal can get the drugs.

There should be sin taxes placed on crap like oreos, candy, non-diet soda and everytime you go through a McDonalds drive through. Sure, you can do it, but you have to pay for it.

If you choose to take it a step further and buy cigarretes, then your name should be placed in a registry of people that can't receive certain expensive treatments later on in life (e.g. lung transplants, expensive treatment for lung and throat cancer). This wouldn't bother me one bit and could fund a helluva lot of the costs.

[Mormon Red Death]

Who knows? You might be right about this. The current system would probably end up about the same way. The costs are increasing so fast that only the few you mentioned in your post will be able to afford the premiums in the next few years. Hell, I can't afford the premiums. My health insurance is more than my mortgage.

The only reason something like this is being proposed is the current system is so bad.

Sounds like you should shop for new plan. You can get High Deductible policy (6k-7.5k deductible) in Utah for a family of 5 for $400 a month. Then you can have a HSA that you and your spouse can put 5k a year into tax free. You are covered from a catastrophe. It won't be like working for the UAW but at least its coverage.

[RobinFinderson]

Socialized medicine would be really good for the entrepreneurial spirit. How many men and women have had great business ideas, but couldn't pursue them because they could not risk walking away from a job with a good health care package?

[Mormon Red Death]

Socialized medicine would be really good for the entrepreneurial spirit. How many men and women have had great business ideas, but couldn't pursue them because they could not risk walking away from a job with a good health care package?

Mandatory pay for not working would be really good for the entrepreneurial spirit. How many men and women have had great business ideas, but couldn't pursue them because they could not risk walking away from a job with a good salary?

[tooblue]

vitriol
Noun
1. language expressing bitterness and hatred

Yes... I have bitterness and hatred of socialistic programs. I don't have bitterness or hatred of tooblue or Robin.

As for Canada they have the luxury of having the US being right down the road and they speak our language. Unfortunately for the USA we don't have a country with 15 times the population and money to do the lion's share of research and development of new drugs and medical procedures.

I know I know... you don't believe that Canada ration's its health care. Any search for articles or research will just be propaganda.

What I see is EVERY person having access to the same medical care regardless of their economic situation. The reality is the US system rations medical care on a far greater scale and with more serious consequences. The US system is truly darwinian.

[RobinFinderson]

Mandatory pay for not working would be really good for the entrepreneurial spirit. How many men and women have had great business ideas, but couldn't pursue them because they could not risk walking away from a job with a good salary?

Actually that isn't a bad idea. A parent could explain to the family, "We are going to move into public housing, eat at the local milk bar, and enroll in public education for a while. This will hopefully be a temporary, while we make a go at starting a new business. If things don't work out after a year or two, I will head back to the private sector and seek traditional employment. If the business thrives, we will live more abundantly than ever before."

I like the idea... we could have a parallel socialized system that provided an array of essential needs to people. Participants in the socialized system would be provided work. They wouldn't have to pay for food, shelter, clothing or anything essential. In exchange for a modest day of labor, they would receive healthy food, a clean, warm, well lit living space, and modest creature comforts. This system would serve as a safety net for everyone, but would not replace the private market entirely. Folks could move between systems at will.

That would be cool.

[wuapinmon]

For those who are protesting....I ask....is Wal-Mart a good thing for capitalism, the consumer, and its suppliers?

Answer the question, don't go into my motives....just answer the question and explain your answer.

[Mormon Red Death]

For those who are protesting....I ask....is Wal-Mart a good thing for capitalism, the consumer, and its suppliers?

Answer the question, don't go into my motives....just answer the question and explain your answer.

Yes it is.

[RobinFinderson]

Yes it is.

Walmart thrives because it limits workers hours and benefits so that a huge chunk of its employees depend heavily on government handouts (food stamps and health care). In other words a big chunk of Walmart's profits are realized at the taxpayers' expense. Also, healthy unions are going to exist in any 'free' market. Walmart leverages its considerable political power to quash unions.

I don't know that Walmart could exist in its current form in a true free market system.

[Mormon Red Death]

Walmart thrives because it limits workers hours and benefits so that a huge chunk of its employees depend heavily on government handouts (food stamps and health care). In other words a big chunk of Walmart's profits are realized at the taxpayers' expense. Also, healthy unions are going to exist in any 'free' market. Walmart leverages its considerable political power to quash unions.

I don't know that Walmart could exist in its current form in a true free market system.

yeah ok...