Universal Healthcare

[BlueHair]

How 'bout this idea - you want nationalized health care? You pay for it.

All those in favor of it should pay for it. I don't want it, so I won't pay for it, nor will I use it. I'll continue to use my private insurance.

IOW, put your money, not my money, where your mouth is.

I'm with you on this. I also want the opportunity to opt out of paying for bailouts and wars I don't agree with. I want to opt out of paying for most public programs.

[TheAzzuri]

How do you know this? What experience in life has given you this privileged view of what makes people tick? What do you know about human nature, and how do you know it?

And yet you presume to be certain about the opposite. Do you have any basis for your certainty? I'm honestly curious.


For the record, I'm not 100% against some sort of socialization. And I actually think you're trolling, but it's worth some discussion.

[RobinFinderson]

This is my chief problem with Obama's policies--massive benefit increases for people while simultaneously cutting the costs they bear.

Benefits for poor people, especially the working poor, reflects a belief that those people DO contribute to the nation's well being, but just not with money. In other words, their labor and consumption help stabilize the social system in ways that are not reflected in their salary.

[RobinFinderson]

And yet you presume to be certain about the opposite. Do you have any basis for your certainty? I'm honestly curious.


For the record, I'm not 100% against some sort of socialization. And I actually think you're trolling, but it's worth some discussion.

Maybe you missed it when I said:

This is all just personal speculation. I don't claim expertise here. You asserted a selfish model of human nature as if it were fact, and as if there are no competing models. I just want to know how you figured that out.

[wuapinmon]

How 'bout this idea - you want nationalized health care? You pay for it.

All those in favor of it should pay for it. I don't want it, so I won't pay for it, nor will I use it. I'll continue to use my private insurance.

IOW, put your money, not my money, where your mouth is.

I'd do it, and like Wal*Mart, the collective buying power of the largest group would drive down costs and make it affordable. I'm willing to pay for it...I don't want it for free. I just don't like the idea of someone making money off "managing" my risk. And please don't pillory me with "that's what capitalism is, stupid" stuff, because, I understand that businesses have to make money.....but making billions in profit while making it so that someone people can't afford healthcare without financial ruin is just wrong. My mom's medical bills for my dad were $250k (Emory forgave them, eventually), but there was a time when she was worried she was going to lose her house and her cash savings because of my dad being in the hospital for a month. He died in October and Soc. Sec. said if we could keep him alive until January, that they would pick up the tab. How farked up is that?

I deal with a sporadically non-functioning gallbladder every damned day because I can't afford the $15k+ that my insurance company won't pay to have an "elective cholesystechtomy." It hurts like hell, man. Granted, my presentation is "atypical" and my obesity and sleep apnea put me at risk of infection and anesthesia complications, but I'd be so grateful to not hurt if I eat salad, or eggs, or bananas, or stuff that's good for me. The only thing that doesn't make it hurt, guaranteed is non-fat yogurt.

[il Padrino Ute]

I think that the human species is social and tribal. Tribalism is a primitive social structure that allows specialization. Tribe members look out for each others interests, which I personally think is a part of human nature, and an extension of our survival instincts.

I think that the way we educate our children has much to do with who they see as being part of their tribe. Tribe identification is part of education, and can be shaped.

This is all just personal speculation. I don't claim expertise here. You asserted a selfish model of human nature as if it were fact, and as if there are no competing models. I just want to know how you figured that out.

It was only my opinion. I failed to communicate that, but you read way too much between the lines.

[beelzebabette]

Take your wealthiest people and drop them off in the jungle on some habitable planet and you will discover that the tools of success in our social environment do not translate over to a jungle full of carnivorous alien wild cats.

How will innovation, team management, and an understanding of economies of scale hurt these people in a raw habitat?

[TheAzzuri]

Maybe you missed it when I said:

Fair enough. I hadn't read that far down yet.

However, I do think your utopian view is pretty idealistic. I can't think of any precedent for what you're suggesting, whereas I can think of several examples to support the opposite.

Am I wrong? Is there an example I'm missing?

[il Padrino Ute]

I'd do it, and like Wal*Mart, the collective buying power of the largest group would drive down costs and make it affordable. I'm willing to pay for it...I don't want it for free. I just don't like the idea of someone making money off "managing" my risk. And please don't pillory me with "that's what capitalism is, stupid" stuff, because, I understand that businesses have to make money.....but making billions in profit while making it so that someone people can't afford healthcare without financial ruin is just wrong. My mom's medical bills for my dad were $250k (Emory forgave them, eventually), but there was a time when she was worried she was going to lose her house and her cash savings because of my dad being in the hospital for a month. He died in October and Soc. Sec. said if we could keep him alive until January, that they would pick up the tab. How farked up is that?

I deal with a sporadically non-functioning gallbladder every damned day because I can't afford the $15k+ that my insurance company won't pay to have an "elective cholesystechtomy." It hurts like hell, man. Granted, my presentation is "atypical" and my obesity and sleep apnea put me at risk of infection and anesthesia complications, but I'd be so grateful to not hurt if I eat salad, or eggs, or bananas, or stuff that's good for me. The only thing that doesn't make it hurt, guaranteed is non-fat yogurt.

I think you and I are a lot closer than your post seems to indicate. I never mentioned capitalism at all. You brought it up.

All I said was that I'm against nationalizing health care if I have to pay for it because I don't want it.

[tooblue]

Ask Tooblue (who is a proponent of NHI) how long his son has to wait for a simple procedure that if he were in the states would be done in a couple of weeks (hint its close to 8 months).

That's not accurate. It is after all elective surgery and not life threatening or quality of life threatening in ANY WAY. But in this instance the wait is only because of the age of the child -- they would prefer to perform the surgery on a one year old as opposed to a one month old. It would be the same in the US

When there is an issue of choice to proceed with a procedure there is a wait. Anything that is life or quality of life threatening is dealt with in the EXACT same fashion and according to timelines commensurate with care delivered in the US. In other words there is NO WAIT. You are fear mongering in order to support you opinion.

[Hallelujah]

First off, I wasn't claiming to be one of the kids. I was only establishing my experience as having spent time without insurance. It wasn't rhetoric. It's fact. There are kids in this country without health insurance. I know there are CHiP programs and the like, but obviously they're not covering everyone. I don't know why. You would obvioulsy know more than I.

I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I would like to see something done to get them insured. I don't know if another government program is the answer (I don't know the answer). Evidently, I wasn't clear enough. But save the "rhetoric without substance" line. It's old.



Yeah, that's it. I wanted someone else to take care of me.

I couldn't afford the 2,000+ bucks a year for insurance when I was making 800 bucks a month. I was healthy, and the few times I did go to the doctor, I paid out of pocket. Overall, it was a calculated gamble. If I had ended up in the emergency room, or been diagnosed with some form of cancer, I would have been screwed. As would my parents. And (perhaps) the hospital.

I want to be clear: I don't know the solution. I do want kids to get insurance.

Agreed. Kids should have insurance. There are some new clinics that charge $55 per visit. Most people should be able to afford $55 per visit. They pay more than that for beer , cell phones, cable, etc.

[wuapinmon]

I think you and I are a lot closer than your post seems to indicate. I never mentioned capitalism at all. You brought it up.

All I said was that I'm against nationalizing health care if I have to pay for it because I don't want it.

You are a rarity then.....usually, judging by the vitriol I get on my blog from people, when people say what you do, I get a long lecture about how naive I am, and how I am obviously not a man because I teach and don't know how to work... milquetoast....that sort of thing.

I'm too defensive, as usual. Forgive 70x7, por favor.

[RobinFinderson]

How will innovation, team management, and an understanding of economies of scale hurt these people in a raw habitat?

The raw habitat rewards the generalists. Modern life rewards the specialist. The ability for companies and individuals to hyper-specialize is a privilege sustained to a great degree by governments. Individuals and companies that reap the benefits of this privilege should pay for it. They do this with taxes.

[RobinFinderson]

It was only my opinion. I failed to communicate that, but you read way too much between the lines.

Ok, it is your opinion. How did you come by it? Are you willing to defend your opinion?

[il Padrino Ute]

You are a rarity then.....usually, judging by the vitriol I get on my blog from people, when people say what you do, I get a long lecture about how naive I am, and how I am obviously not a man because I teach and don't know how to work... milquetoast....that sort of thing.

I'm too defensive, as usual. Forgive 70x7, por favor.

No worries, friend.

And there is nothing wrong with teaching. I come from a family of educators on both sides.