Universal Healthcare

[il Padrino Ute]

Your view of humanity is so cynical that it actually undermines the teachings of Jesus Christ. People can be taught to be good citizens, and not just good consumers. We can be a better people. This is why many folks go to church, because they see it as a school of sorts where through reflection on God, they can become better people. Just as we developed a culture that no longer looks at black children as potential slaves, we can develop a culture that sees ALL children as potential Einsteins and Michelangelos.

Don't socialize luxury. Give every child access to the best tools for becoming their best selves.

Cynical? Perhaps. Accurate? 100%

I'm not against compassion to others, charity and all things Christlike, but those are traits that can't be taught. One has to choose to be that way.

I'm no longer afraid you live in a dream world. You do live in a dream world.

[RobinFinderson]

Are you really OK with this precedent? Sure you are, as long as the definition of wealthy only includes those making more than you.

I don't mind raising taxes on the wealthy to a greater extent than others, but I don't like the idea of targeting specific groups to pay for benefits for everyone else. Everyone else gets tax cuts and huge benefits, completely financed by tax hikes for the group that doesn't get any of the benefits. Doesn't that rub you a little wrong?

Take your wealthiest people and drop them off in the jungle on some habitable planet and you will discover that the tools of success in our social environment do not translate over to a jungle full of carnivorous alien wild cats.

[ERCougar]

Here's a question for you: Of the ER visits in your hospital, how many are truly emergencies? And I'll leave the definition of 'emergency' up to you?

Well, it's not really fair to leave it up to me, because part of my job is to educate people regarding what defines a life-threatening emergency. My own definition before and after med school and residency changed significantly. For example, coughing up blood is rarely anything serious and probably doesn't need to come into the ER, yet it freaks out a lot of people and I can understand that.

I'll admit to being more than a little frustrated at convenience visits to the ER, mostly because I didn't go through training to treat colds, and secondarily because of the cost society bears for these visits. However, if I really put myself in the patient's shoes, I can usually figure out a decent non-convenience reason for their visit. Yes, sometimes that is because they couldn't get in to see their doctor, but often that's because they're trying to work a 9-5 job.

[Hallelujah]

Take your wealthiest people and drop them off in the jungle on some habitable planet and you will discover that the tools of success in our social environment do not translate over to a jungle full of carnivorous alien wild cats.

hey, it works well in California. Let's try it nationwide.

[BlueHair]

You would rather go to France for your healthcare?

My health insurance is now $800 a month. My deductibles are $750 per family member. After my deductible is met, the coverage is 70%. Basically it is too expensive to use. There is no reason for it to be this expensive. What good is a healthcare system that can be utilized? We allow health insurance companies to decide treatment. They are much more concerned about money than they are people. I would like a medicare style insurance plan. Universal rates would be negotiated. I don't want government run hospitals.

At my job, we do some government work. We make less money on the government work, but they pay 100% of the time. We would gladly trade all of our other work for government work because there is no risk. Hospitals would theoretically be able to offer cheaper rates because they know they will get paid.

[RobinFinderson]

Cynical? Perhaps. Accurate? 100%

I'm not against compassion to others, charity and all things Christlike, but those are traits that can't be taught. One has to choose to be that way.

I'm no longer afraid you live in a dream world. You do live in a dream world.

How do you know this? What experience in life has given you this privileged view of what makes people tick? What do you know about human nature, and how do you know it?

[ERCougar]

Take your wealthiest people and drop them off in the jungle on some habitable planet and you will discover that the tools of success in our social environment do not translate over to a jungle full of carnivorous alien wild cats.

Of course, you could do the same thing with the poorest group of people.

I see what you're getting at--the old Teddy Roosevelt justification for progressive taxation. I already mentioned that I have nothing against progressive taxation; I do have a problem with the precedent set by targeting specific groups to pay for benefits for others. Any group that receives a benefit should bear at least a tiny portion of the cost. Is that so crazy? Are we that entitled?

[Solon]

Your twenties are hardly your childhood--one more example of rhetoric without much substance.

First off, I wasn't claiming to be one of the kids. I was only establishing my experience as having spent time without insurance. It wasn't rhetoric. It's fact. There are kids in this country without health insurance. I know there are CHiP programs and the like, but obviously they're not covering everyone. I don't know why. You would obvioulsy know more than I.

I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I would like to see something done to get them insured. I don't know if another government program is the answer (I don't know the answer). Evidently, I wasn't clear enough. But save the "rhetoric without substance" line. It's old.

Why didn't you buy health insurance? Because you wanted someone else to take care of you?.

Yeah, that's it. I wanted someone else to take care of me.

I couldn't afford the 2,000+ bucks a year for insurance when I was making 800 bucks a month. I was healthy, and the few times I did go to the doctor, I paid out of pocket. Overall, it was a calculated gamble. If I had ended up in the emergency room, or been diagnosed with some form of cancer, I would have been screwed. As would my parents. And (perhaps) the hospital.

I want to be clear: I don't know the solution. I do want kids to get insurance.

[ERCougar]

My health insurance is now $800 a month. My deductibles are $750 per family member. After my deductible is met, the coverage is 70%. Basically it is too expensive to use. There is no reason for it to be this expensive. What good is a healthcare system that can be utilized? We allow health insurance companies to decide treatment. They are much more concerned about money than they are people. I would like a medicare style insurance plan. Universal rates would be negotiated. I don't want government run hospitals.

At my job, we do some government work. We make less money on the government work, but they pay 100% of the time. We would gladly trade all of our other work for government work because there is no risk. Hospitals would theoretically be able to offer cheaper rates because they know they will get paid.

I pay about the same for a 10K deductible with 100% coverage afterward. Which is exactly what "insurance" is intended to do--cover catastrophes.

[il Padrino Ute]

How do you know this? What experience in life has given you this privileged view of what makes people tick? What do you know about human nature, and how do you know it?

Do you disagree that goodwill toward fellow man is a choice?

Survival is human nature, is it not?

[ERCougar]

First off, I wasn't claiming to be one of the kids. I was only establishing my experience as having spent time without insurance. It wasn't rhetoric. It's fact. There are kids in this country without health insurance. I know there are CHiP programs and the like, but obviously they're not covering everyone. I don't know why. You would obvioulsy know more than I.

I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I would like to see something done to get them insured. I don't know if another government program is the answer (I don't know the answer). Evidently, I wasn't clear enough. But save the "rhetoric without substance" line. It's old.

The reason that kids aren't getting insured under CHIP is that their parents refuse to enroll them, despite nearly every obstacle being removed and states actively trying to recruit them. The income limits for CHIP are really generous. There is no excuse for a child to go without health insurance, and I don't know of a single parent who gives a crap about their child who lets this happen.

I'll agree with you that NHI would be a nice benefit. I'm not meaning to attack you with the "rhetoric without substance" line. But "children going without health insurance" is just as tired and is the ideal example of the term.

[RobinFinderson]

Any group that receives a benefit should bear at least a tiny portion of the cost. Is that so crazy? Are we that entitled?

I can agree with this.

[ERCougar]

I can agree with this.

This is my chief problem with Obama's policies--massive benefit increases for people while simultaneously cutting the costs they bear.

[RobinFinderson]

Do you disagree that goodwill toward fellow man is a choice?

Survival is human nature, is it not?

I think that the human species is social and tribal. Tribalism is a primitive social structure that allows specialization. Tribe members look out for each others interests, which I personally think is a part of human nature, and an extension of our survival instincts.

I think that the way we educate our children has much to do with who they see as being part of their tribe. Tribe identification is part of education, and can be shaped.

This is all just personal speculation. I don't claim expertise here. You asserted a selfish model of human nature as if it were fact, and as if there are no competing models. I just want to know how you figured that out.

[BlueHair]

No libertarian wants universal heath care.

I figure I have lived with socialized police, military, fire department, schools, roads, airports, libraries, museums, stadiums etc. Why not insurance? I would love to eliminate most of that list and save some money to pay for my own healthcare.