Universal Healthcare

[faith]

Fair enough. Not sure I completely agree, but I can see your point. Again, I'm interested in what Faith thinks on this issue. Personally, I feel like I agreed with you much more strongly before spending much time in the trenches, so to speak. The problem isn't all lack of opportunity.

ER, I agree that the problem isn't completely lack of opportunity. There seems to be a culture of despair and failure that often is woven into the oppressiveness of poverty, particularly with generational poverty. I have some students who refuse to put forth any effort in academics, students who have no goals for life after high school, and I don't know how to help them. I see some of my pregnant girls and I know that some of them felt that having a baby was a much more comforting alternative to facing scary decisions such as the possibility of attending college. I do believe that access to health care, excellent education and healthy food are important to helping to change the culture of poverty. I also believe that safety(the opportunity to live without the constant fear of the possibility of violence occurring) is extremely important to allowing people to achieve their potential. So many vital parts of a healthy society seem to be missing in low socio-economic communities in our country, and these missing parts are inter-connected. When my students don't have access to decent food, they become sickly (with some really strange maladies) and cannot focus in school. When they are always on guard because of possible violence, their academics often suffer. We are fortunate to have two full-time psychiatric social workers on our campus, and they are completely overwhelmed with cases that they are working on.

As a fellow person "in the trenches", I recognize that there are problems that go beyond having opportunities. We need to work to change those aspects of cultural poverty that bring about generational suffering, but we also need to make sure that opportunities are available. A while back Robin posted a letter from one of my students. I am happy to report that my student is currently interviewing with a number of schools, including Dartmouth and Harvard. Remember, this girl is currently homeless, living in a shelter. In even the roughest corners where Americans are experiencing deeply impoverished conditions, there are always people ready to take advantage of opportunity.

[tooblue]

Uh yeah... The Frasier Institute will have to disagree.

Here is a quote for your viewing pleasure



But I guess I am just a fear mongerer

what is the Frasier Institute's political motivation? From the Frazier Institute Web site on what should be done in regards to Canada's health care system:

Canada should adopt a system like Switzerland’s that offers universal compulsory private health insurance that includes drug coverage. This provides both the benefits of cost-efficiency and the broadest possible access to advanced medicines and medical care.

Unless of course I'm mistaken Switzerland employ's a universal health care program similar to all other social democratic countries Actually, it sounds a lot like Obama's plan. So, in view of your opinions on the subject, which are NOT in line with Obama's ideas I might suggest you more carefully consider whose research you are citing to prove your point!

Oh, by the way how many Canadians are waiting for surgery to deal with life threatening or even quality of life threatening ailments ... you mean that's NOT in the research? And don't bore me with the "a hip replacement is quality of life threatening blah blah". Especially when I have first hand knowledge of the elderly who were moved to the front of the line and had the surgery quickly because the ailment was quality of life threatening ... like most recently my Home Teaching companion, and not too long ago an elderly sister I home taught.

[ERCougar]

ER, I agree that the problem isn't completely lack of opportunity. There seems to be a culture of despair and failure that often is woven into the oppressiveness of poverty, particularly with generational poverty. I have some students who refuse to put forth any effort in academics, students who have no goals for life after high school, and I don't know how to help them. I see some of my pregnant girls and I know that some of them felt that having a baby was a much more comforting alternative to facing scary decisions such as the possibility of attending college. I do believe that access to health care, excellent education and healthy food are important to helping to change the culture of poverty. I also believe that safety(the opportunity to live without the constant fear of the possibility of violence occurring) is extremely important to allowing people to achieve their potential. So many vital parts of a healthy society seem to be missing in low socio-economic communities in our country, and these missing parts are inter-connected. When my students don't have access to decent food, they become sickly (with some really strange maladies) and cannot focus in school. When they are always on guard because of possible violence, their academics often suffer. We are fortunate to have two full-time psychiatric social workers on our campus, and they are completely overwhelmed with cases that they are working on.

As a fellow person "in the trenches", I recognize that there are problems that go beyond having opportunities. We need to work to change those aspects of cultural poverty that bring about generational suffering, but we also need to make sure that opportunities are available. A while back Robin posted a letter from one of my students. I am happy to report that my student is currently interviewing with a number of schools, including Dartmouth and Harvard. Remember, this girl is currently homeless, living in a shelter. In even the roughest corners where Americans are experiencing deeply impoverished conditions, there are always people ready to take advantage of opportunity.

Thanks for your thoughts. God bless people like you who can keep at it. I know I couldn't.

EDIT: I need to add a few things. Again, I truly admire people like you who can stick with it and still continue to give these people the benefit of the doubt. I admit that I can hardly understand where they're coming from, as my childhood/adolescent struggles were on a completely different sphere. On my best days, I could bring up the energy to empathize and care, but it's absolutely exhausting, physically and emotionally. I honestly can't imagine what a teacher goes through.

I'm no longer in that setting and I have to admit that I'm much happier. I grew tired of having to overcome the huge barrier of mistrust simply because I was white. I grew tired of homes without fathers. I grew tired of trying to talk people into keeping their pants on (the definition of sexually active in the inner city is very different from suburban America--literally, when they say they're not sexually active, it means they're not having sex in front of you on the table, and nothing more). I grew tired of the constant victim mentality. In short, I grew tired of trying to help people with so many self-inflicted problems who in so many cases, refuse to help themselves. It may be that I would be the same had I grown up in a similar background. I simply don't know.

I was paid well for my arguably easier work, so I can't complain too much; you're obviously making larger sacrifices for less compensation. Hopefully, there is a God to compensate you for what you're doing.

[Mormon Red Death]

what is the Frasier Institute's political motivation? From the Frazier Institute Web site on what should be done in regards to Canada's health care system:



Unless of course I'm mistaken Switzerland employ's a universal health care program similar to all other social democratic countries Actually, it sounds a lot like Obama's plan. So, in view of your opinions on the subject, which are NOT in line with Obama's ideas I might suggest you more carefully consider whose research you are citing to prove your point!

Oh, by the way how many Canadians are waiting for surgery to deal with life threatening or even quality of life threatening ailments ... you mean that's NOT in the research? And don't bore me with the "a hip replacement is quality of life threatening blah blah". Especially when I have first hand knowledge of the elderly who were moved to the front of the line and had the surgery quickly because the ailment was quality of life threatening ... like most recently my Home Teaching companion, and not too long ago an elderly sister I home taught.

These stories are all over the internet. But they of course are all about an agenda.

The Waiting Game: ER Wait Times In Canada vs US
August 7, 2008
Average ER Waiting Time Nears 1 Hour:
The average time that hospital emergency rooms patients wait to see a doctor has grown from about 38 minutes to almost an hour over the past decade, according to new federal statistics released yesterday.
The increase is due to supply and demand, said Dr. Stephen Pitts, the lead author of the report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
“There are more people arriving at the ERs. And there are fewer ERs,” said Pitts, an associate professor of emergency medicine at Atlanta’s Emory University.
Overall, about 119 million visits were made to US emergency rooms in 2006, up from 90 million in 1996 - a 32 percent increase.

ER wait times in Ottawa, Canada’s capital district:
Got an urgent medical problem? If you visit an emergency room in western Quebec’s Outaouais region, prepare to wait an average of 20 hours and 42 minutes before being discharged or admitted to another ward in the hospital.
According to data compiled by the Le Comité de coordination national des urgences (CCNU), which works with emergency wards across the province, the average wait time in the Outaouais is four hours above the provincial average and two hours longer than last year. In addition, the data does not include the time spent waiting before seeing a doctor.

The data was published Wednesday in the GESCA newspaper chain, as part of its third annual rankings of Quebec hospitals.
The longest wait times in the region were at the Gatineau campus of the Gatineau hospital, where the average wait time was 25 hours.

[RobinFinderson]

Hopefully, there is a God to compensate you for what you're doing.

Dude, that is why she married me. I am compensation enough.

[Mormon Red Death]

Most of my extended family is Canadian, conservative descendants of polygamists in Alberta, the most conservative province. Like conservatives here in the states, they complain about the cost of poor people taking advantage of their public health care system. What they don't complain about is waiting for service. In fact they think the service is pretty darn good most of the time.

In a different anecdotal story, when I was working as a model maker, a colleague cut his finger in the band saw. I rushed him to an ER in Marina del Rey (a wealthy beach community) where we waited for four hours for him to get help.

I've got nothing but anecdotes, but everything I have have seen calls BS on your Ottawa report. Something is fishy about it.

Hmmm... empirical evidence versus anectdotal evidence. which one should I choose?

[RobinFinderson]

Hmmm... empirical evidence versus anectdotal evidence. which one should I choose?

I deleted my post because I'm not interested in arguing from anecdote. But I would like to take a closer look at that study you posted. Where can I find it?

[Mormon Red Death]

I deleted my post because I'm not interested in arguing from anecdote. But I would like to take a closer look at that study you posted. Where can I find it?

The data was published Wednesday in the GESCA newspaper chain, as part of its third annual rankings of Quebec hospitals.

[RobinFinderson]

The data was published Wednesday in the GESCA newspaper chain, as part of its third annual rankings of Quebec hospitals.

Can you provide a link? I can't find the original report via Google.

[Mormon Red Death]

Can you provide a link? I can't find the original report via Google.

here are some links

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/

http://www.american.com/archive/2008...ian-healthcare

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/r...ical_Care.html

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...t/16/5/181.pdf (tooblue shouldn't look at this one because seeing probably isnt a quality of life indicator)

Look for pure emergency care they are same as in the states. Obviously someone who has been shot is going to see a doctor fast. Other non elective and elective surgeries you will have to wait longer than the states.

[RobinFinderson]

here are some links

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/

http://www.american.com/archive/2008...ian-healthcare

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/r...ical_Care.html

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...t/16/5/181.pdf (tooblue shouldn't look at this one because seeing probably isnt a quality of life indicator)

Look for pure emergency care they are same as in the states. Obviously someone who has been shot is going to see a doctor fast. Other non elective and elective surgeries you will have to wait longer than the states.

Those links are interesting, but none of them are the one you quoted originally. I can understand that there are complaints about waiting to see specialists (which was one of the primary concerns I gathered from skimming all of those articles), but the 20+ hour AVERAGE wait period in ER's seemed preposterous, and so far I have seen no original report to support that claim.

[tooblue]

These stories are all over the internet. But they of course are all about an agenda.

Gosh, the internet, REALLY. All over the place you say -- like blogs, that are not news sources but opinion sources? I see you have failed to contend with my pointing to the ACTUAL research by the Frasier Institute and instead are now trying to redirect the conversation.

One series of incidents, perhaps spanning a specific time frame and perhaps not a permanent situation is empirical evidence? I live in the country and rely on the health system in question and yet my evidence is anecdotal?

lol

[tooblue]

Gosh, the internet, REALLY. All over the place you say -- like blogs, that are not news sources but opinion sources? I see you have failed to contend with my pointing to the ACTUAL research by the Frasier Institute and instead are now trying to redirect the conversation.

One series of incidents, perhaps spanning a specific time frame and perhaps not a permanent situation is empirical evidence? I live in the country and rely on the health system in question and yet my evidence is anecdotal?

lol

I mean seriously. You may live in Detroit MRD but come on the city isn't dying -- it can't be that bad. Selling houses for $1? They must be selling hundreds of homes for a $! Unless there are lot's of opinions on the internet available to contradict you. could be you know -- they could be all over the place!

[Mormon Red Death]

Gosh, the internet, REALLY. All over the place you say -- like blogs, that are not news sources but opinion sources? I see you have failed to contend with my pointing to the ACTUAL research by the Frasier Institute and instead are now trying to redirect the conversation.

One series of incidents, perhaps spanning a specific time frame and perhaps not a permanent situation is empirical evidence? I live in the country and rely on the health system in question and yet my evidence is anecdotal?

lol

The CBC isn't a real news source? In case anyone doesn't know the CBC is the NBC or CBS of Canada.

Additionally, the American Magazine is like Time or Newsweek. But I guess they aren't very reputable.

[Mormon Red Death]

I mean seriously. You may live in Detroit MRD but come on the city isn't dying -- it can't be that bad. Selling houses for $1? They must be selling hundreds of homes for a $! Unless there are lot's of opinions on the internet available to contradict you. could be you know -- they could be all over the place!

Its like arguing with a rock. Yes they tried to sell a house for $1 of course anyone who bought this house would have to pay back taxes but they still did try and sell the house for a $1 and it was 20 days before it was sold.