The Police Brutality Thread

[Northwestcoug]

good hell. that was heartbreaking. and yeah, extremely graphic is correct.

i hadn't heard of that case. so the cops were claiming he had a gun but body cam video showed otherwise? is that the story?

Yes. They initially claimed he had the gun that his older family member had shot before the cops got there. Prosecution backed that story up, and the mayor also said the same thing because of what they told her. That is clearly not the case, and now prosecution is backtracking saying they were just parroting what the police told them.

[Northwestcoug]

Some people are claiming that Toledo stopped at the gap in the fence and threw the gun to the other fence side, hence the spotlight on the gun at the fence at the ~5:30 mark.

I'm not sure. Seems like that's a weird angle for the gun to fall if he was throwing it away. At any rate, even if he had a gun while running, he did not have it when he turned around, with hands up, just like the cop told him. It should not have gone down like that.

[Eddie]

I caught part of a radio show while driving to grab some lunch today - honestly don't know who it was as I tend to just hit the seek button until I hear something interesting and I didn't recognize the voice. Anyway - a caller was apparently talking about the shooting in which the cop accidentally grabbed her gun instead of her taser. He suggested that in situations where it was something accidental like that, the situation should be handled differently than via criminal proceedings. Sure - it should be investigated to determine whether it was truly accidental or not, but in the case of accidents he was advocating for a civil process to be used. So the family can sue the officer/department responsible for the "accident", and seek retribution. But it wouldn't necessarily result in criminal action. Though the cop could lose their job and POST certification as part of the non-criminal response.

He was comparing it to accidents and accidental death in other occupations - such as doctors. If a doctor makes a mistake that results in a patient's injury or death but doesn't rise to the level of some kind of criminal negligence, then the family is left to civil proceedings to hold the doctor accountable. And the doctor may lose their license to practice. But they don't go to jail.

I don't know anything about how medical malpractice works - and what kind of mistakes doctors make that result in criminal malpractice charges versus a civil suit and maybe a malpractice settlement. So I honestly have no idea how these things compare. I haven't thought about it enough to love the idea or hate it and find myself going back and forth - but I thought it was an interesting point for discussion. I'm guessing it would require some changes to law regarding qualified immunity - but I would lean towards those changing anyway.

More than anything - as these stories come out I'm just glad I'm not a cop making split second life or death decisions for myself and others. And that's coming from someone who was making child protective service decisions regarding removing children from their parents or leaving them at home. But usually I had more than a second to react and someone I could talk it through with rather than thinking I'm about to be shot and have to act NOW.

[Uncle Ted]

Extremely graphic video of Adam Toledo's death:

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The cop seemed remorseful afterwards; I'll give him that. He'll have the death of an unarmed 13 year old on his hands for the rest of his life.

We save a lot of anger for the police department and prosecutors. The official word was that he did have a gun on him. And we wouldn't have known otherwise, until the body cam video came out. So yeah, another bald-faced lie. It shouldn't be surprising anymore what the state will do to protect itself.

He wasn't unarmed... who is making the bald-faced lie?

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[Northwestcoug]

He wasn't unarmed... who is making the bald-faced lie?

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Even if that screen shot is real (I am waiting for that to be verified), did he have a gun when he was shot? Clearly not. The original police statement was that he had a gun in his hand when he was shot. Forgive me if I’m still very skeptical.

Just after I finished reading your tweet about O’Keefe, you post something from Ngo. The two patron Saints of deceptive gotcha journalism. These people have histories. You should know that by now.

[Uncle Ted]

Even if that screen shot is real (I am waiting for that to be verified), did he have a gun when he was shot? Clearly not. The original police statement was that he had a gun in his hand when he was shot. Forgive me if I’m still very skeptical.

The pics were less than a second before he got shot. The cop saw the gun in his hand and had to think quick. It is unfortunate that the kid was only trying to get rid of the gun but what the f*ck was he doing running down an alley 3am in the morning and not listening to a cop? It's dark in a back alley. If a cop sees you have a gun in your hand and you are moving your arms quickly in a dark back alley you are going to get shot, man. I hope you teach your kids to not run down dark back alleys from cops even if they don't have guns.

Edit: Keep in mind that cameras make things look brighter than they are really are.

[Northwestcoug]

The pics were less than a second before he got shot. The cop saw the gun in his hand and had to think quick. It is unfortunate that the kid was only trying to get rid of the gun but what the f*ck was he doing running down an alley 3am in the morning and not listening to a cop? It's dark in a back alley. If a cop sees you have a gun in your hand and you are moving your arms quickly in a dark back alley you are going to get shot, man. I hope you teach your kids to not run down dark back alleys from cops even if they don't have guns.

Edit: Keep in mind that cameras make things look brighter than they are really are.

You and I are both fortunate that even if we didn’t teach our kids and they went ahead and did something like that, they would likely survive the encounter.

yeah I went there.

[Northwestcoug]

Looks like most people are agreeing with the screenshots that he had a gun behind his back, and threw it behind the fence right before being shot. Still, he wasn’t armed and was complying with the cop when he was shot. That’s still a very big issue.

[Uncle Ted]

Looks like most people are agreeing with the screenshots that he had a gun behind his back, and threw it behind the fence right before being shot. Still, he wasn’t armed and was complying with the cop when he was shot. That’s still a very big issue.

If he was complying with the cop he wouldn't be running from him when he said, "stop, stop right f*ck'n now", and wouldn't go for his gun when the cop told him, "show me your f*ck'n hands, drop [it]" (listen closely). It all happened in less than a second. The dumb kid went for his gun when he should have (1) not run away from the cop and (2) not gone for his gun. He wasn't complying to sh*t.

Cops want to see your hands. When I get pulled over for speeding or something I get my drivers license (and CHL) out and put it on the dash. Then roll down my window and I put my hands on the steering wheel where they can be easily seen before the cop even gets up my car. (In Texas, there is no registration papers and insurance can be verified electronically.) I tell my kids to do the same thing. Cops really appreciate when folks do this. Most of the time I get off from speeding and I have a really heavy foot.

[Northwestcoug]

Cops want to see your hands. When I get pulled over for speeding or something I get my drivers license (and CHL) out and put it on the dash. Then roll down my window and I put my hands on the steering wheel where they can be easily seen before the cop even gets up my car. (In Texas, there is no registration papers and insurance can be verified electronically.) I tell my kids to do the same thing. Cops really appreciate when folks do this. Most of the time I get off from speeding and I have a really heavy foot.

again, you and I are fortunate this strategy works for people like us. It is glaringly insufficient for others. And even if we didn’t play it like police want us to, there would be a solid chance that we’d get away with it. I’d bet we or our kids could do a whole host of boneheaded things interacting with cops, and we’d have a decent shot at not being shot at. This is only part of a huge problem.

[Uncle Ted]

BTW, I am guessing that kid didn't have a concealed carry license given that he was under 21 or even the required Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) Card. Those laws should have stopped this from happening!

[SeattleUte]

Here is a problem that led to the Toledo killing in my opinion: Too much emphasis on apprehension and not enough on making safe and rational decisions. Why chase a fleeing person who you think is armed down a dark alley at all? Good chance someone will die needlessly. Safety should be the priority. The cops have an arrest and will probably find out the identity of the fleeing individual. Regardless, so what if one of them gets away. He’s no longer dangerous. The risk-reward of giving chase doesn’t make any sense.

I’m afraid the toxic cop culture that led to the Toledo killing was if you don’t chase him, you’re a coward. Chasing someone with a gun down a dark alley all yourself is just stupid. Your heart pounding, your perceptions faulty, your body on high alert. High chance you or he will be dead or disabled and/or your life and career ruined and a lot of property damage and possibly death will ensue. Cops need to be trained to think first and to reject hero culture.

There are worse things than a criminal gets away with it—Thomas Jefferson. Like somebody getting killed. That is the end of the world ford that person.

The officer had never been in this situation before. Never used a gun before on the job. Unfit to be chasing someone armed down a dark alley. I pity everyone here.

[Uncle Ted]

Here is a problem that led to the Toledo killing in my opinion: Too much emphasis on apprehension and not enough on making safe and rational decisions. Why chase a fleeing person who you think is armed down a dark alley at all? Good chance someone will die needlessly. Safety should be the priority. The cops have an arrest and will probably find out the identity of the fleeing individual. Regardless, so what if one of them gets away. He’s no longer dangerous. The risk-reward of giving chase doesn’t make any sense.

I’m afraid the toxic cop culture that led to the Toledo killing was if you don’t chase him, you’re a coward. Chasing someone with a gun down a dark alley all yourself is just stupid. Your heart pounding, your perceptions faulty, your body on high alert. High chance you or he will be dead or disabled and/or your life and career ruined and a lot of property damage and possibly death will ensue. Cops need to be trained to think first and to reject hero culture.

There are worse things than a criminal gets away with it—Thomas Jefferson. Like somebody getting killed. That is the end of the world ford that person.

The officer had never been in this situation before. Never used a gun before on the job. Unfit to be chasing someone armed down a dark alley. I pity everyone here.

All the reason to do exactly what the cop says and keep your hands where he can see them... let the lawyers sort this sh*t out.

[Commando]

All the reason to do exactly what the cop says and keep your hands where he can see them... let the lawyers sort this sh*t out.

Yeah that works out a lot. Unless the 25-year veteran officer accidentally grabs her gun instead of her taser to use on someone pulled over w air fresheners w a misdemeanor warrant and then whoopsie daisy.

[Eddie]

Here is a problem that led to the Toledo killing in my opinion: Too much emphasis on apprehension and not enough on making safe and rational decisions. Why chase a fleeing person who you think is armed down a dark alley at all? Good chance someone will die needlessly. Safety should be the priority. The cops have an arrest and will probably find out the identity of the fleeing individual. Regardless, so what if one of them gets away. He’s no longer dangerous. The risk-reward of giving chase doesn’t make any sense.

I’m afraid the toxic cop culture that led to the Toledo killing was if you don’t chase him, you’re a coward. Chasing someone with a gun down a dark alley all yourself is just stupid. Your heart pounding, your perceptions faulty, your body on high alert. High chance you or he will be dead or disabled and/or your life and career ruined and a lot of property damage and possibly death will ensue. Cops need to be trained to think first and to reject hero culture.

There are worse things than a criminal gets away with it—Thomas Jefferson. Like somebody getting killed. That is the end of the world ford that person.

The officer had never been in this situation before. Never used a gun before on the job. Unfit to be chasing someone armed down a dark alley. I pity everyone here.

I agree that chasing the kid with the gun escalated things. And theoretically knowing who the kid is and picking him up later sounds great.

But I wouldn't completely discount the reason the police were there in the first place. Gunfire was caught by the Shotspotter detection system and the kid was apparently out with a guy shooting at a car (or cars?). If the police let people go who are out at night shooting at others, doesn't that just raise the potential of them continuing the activity? Or are you thinking the kid would just go home after running from the police? As tragic as it is that this kid was shot - I think it would be even more tragic if he managed to shoot someone else. Whether on purpose or accident.

By no means am I saying that kids like him should be shot or that it wasn't tragic - but I have less angst about tragedies like this one than I do about tragedies like the person being shot by a cop who thought they were grabbing a taser, etc.