The Police Brutality Thread

[swampfrog]

Those are totally the same, of course.


21. Taxi Drivers and Chauffeurs
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 10.5 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 62 fatal injuries, 2,640 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $24,880

18. Police and Sheriff’s Patrol Officers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 12.9 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 95 fatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Violence and other injuries by persons or animals
> Median annual wage: $61,050

Also curious that the only 2 professions in which non-fatal injuries are omitted is fire fighters and Police and Sheriff's Patrol Officers. No reasoning provided in the article. It seems to be available in some of the source data cited.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-2018.htm

[wapiti]

Here's the stats on police shooting deaths by race:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

In the US whites are 63%, hispanics 15%, and blacks 13% of the population. By population, if there are 400 whites killed by police there should be about 80 blacks. The average number for blacks is 225. By that measure the number killed "because they are black" is about 145 annually.

I don't think its a stretch to say that vast majority of those shot by policy are low income or living in poverty. There are 18 million whites, 8.5 million blacks, and 11 million hispanics "living in poverty". So if 400 whites are shot annually, there should be around 190 blacks. That's still disproportionate, but the number shot "because they are black" drops from 145 to 35. The real number is probably between those two, skewed toward the lower bound.

The numbers for hispanics are disproportionate by population but not when you account for poverty. By total population and using whites as the baseline there should be about 95 hispanic police shootings, but the actual number is an average of 156. But if we assume police shootings are people with low income, the number should be 244. So for hispanics, these numbers don't support race as a factor in police shootings.

Race is a factor for how blacks are treated by the police and it results in between 35 and 145 police shootings a year where the results would have been different if the victim had a lighter skin tone. The number of interactions where the result isn't death, but that blacks get abused by police due to the color of their skin is probably in the thousands.

[Jeff Lebowski]

and here is the 100% correct response:

[Jeff Lebowski]

I wonder how often videos like these are used in officer training?

Embedded Tweet

I have linked this before, but a fascinating podcast on police training for incidents like this.

http://revisionisthistory.com/episod...the-particular

Analysis of videotape and training reveals that just the slightest hesitation can lead to dead cops. IIRC, it doesn't present any unique or simple solutions, just highlights the tremendous complexity and uncertainty of these circumstances.

[old_gregg]

Here's the stats on police shooting deaths by race:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

In the US whites are 63%, hispanics 15%, and blacks 13% of the population. By population, if there are 400 whites killed by police there should be about 80 blacks. The average number for blacks is 225. By that measure the number killed "because they are black" is about 145 annually.

I don't think its a stretch to say that vast majority of those shot by policy are low income or living in poverty. There are 18 million whites, 8.5 million blacks, and 11 million hispanics "living in poverty". So if 400 whites are shot annually, there should be around 190 blacks. That's still disproportionate, but the number shot "because they are black" drops from 145 to 35. The real number is probably between those two, skewed toward the lower bound.

The numbers for hispanics are disproportionate by population but not when you account for poverty. By total population and using whites as the baseline there should be about 95 hispanic police shootings, but the actual number is an average of 156. But if we assume police shootings are people with low income, the number should be 244. So for hispanics, these numbers don't support race as a factor in police shootings.

Race is a factor for how blacks are treated by the police and it results in between 35 and 145 police shootings a year where the results would have been different if the victim had a lighter skin tone. The number of interactions where the result isn't death, but that blacks get abused by police due to the color of their skin is probably in the thousands.

when you control for suicide by cop, the ratio is such that average black and hispanic something like 15x more likely to have a use of force interaction using a gun.

[old_gregg]

at the end of the day, police officers are not conscripted. nobody hides that this is a low paying, stressful job with serious risks. we should not expect that police officers react to stressful situations in the same way a civilian would--we should expect they react with a heightened ability to assess, deescalate and to stop wielding a badge as an authority hammer, including by being willing to put themselves at more risk than you or i would to help people, including suspects. instead, we've got a self-selected population of people who experience far above average rates of substance abuse and domestic violence, and who view the citizen populace they serve as the enemy. there's nobody and nothing that can fix that until that culture is rooted out.

by the way, the one person in this thread who i believe has actually worked as a leo (bo diddley) agrees that there is a problem with police culture. he may disagree with me about the extent to which that problem contributes to current behaviors, but something is broke.

[swampfrog]

when you control for suicide by cop, the ratio is such that average black and hispanic something like 15x more likely to have a use of force interaction using a gun.

Still disagree that the correct baseline is population. I find the argument more compelling that the baseline should be encounters. Discussing why the encounter ratio is indeed skewed badly would be interesting. Fatal shootings by race measured by percent of population shows disproportionate number of blacks killed, fatal shooting by percent of encounters shows disproportionate number of whites killed.

Encounters are a multi-variate problem that should be teased apart.

[Jeff Lebowski]

at the end of the day, police officers are not conscripted. nobody hides that this is a low paying, stressful job with serious risks. we should not expect that police officers react to stressful situations in the same way a civilian would--we should expect they react with a heightened ability to assess, deescalate and to stop wielding a badge as an authority hammer, including by being willing to put themselves at more risk than you or i would to help people, including suspects. instead, we've got a self-selected population of people who experience far above average rates of substance abuse and domestic violence, and who view the citizen populace they serve as the enemy. there's nobody and nothing that can fix that until that culture is rooted out.

by the way, the one person in this thread who i believe has actually worked as a leo (bo diddley) agrees that there is a problem with police culture. he may disagree with me about the extent to which that problem contributes to current behaviors, but something is broke.

I agree that there is a problem with police culture and that something is broken. But some of your takes are way over the top. I still love you though!

[swampfrog]

at the end of the day, police officers are not conscripted. nobody hides that this is a low paying, stressful job with serious risks. we should not expect that police officers react to stressful situations in the same way a civilian would--we should expect they react with a heightened ability to assess, deescalate and to stop wielding a badge as an authority hammer, including by being willing to put themselves at more risk than you or i would to help people, including suspects. instead, we've got a self-selected population of people who experience far above average rates of substance abuse and domestic violence, and who view the citizen populace they serve as the enemy. there's nobody and nothing that can fix that until that culture is rooted out.

by the way, the one person in this thread who i believe has actually worked as a leo (bo diddley) agrees that there is a problem with police culture. he may disagree with me about the extent to which that problem contributes to current behaviors, but something is broke.

I agree there is a problem with police culture. Some of it exactly of the nature you describe. Some of it is unfortunately human nature. Same problem as military units, once you introduce a concept of family into an organization, you can get the "family" members to do and overlook heinous things in the name protecting the "family". Our sense of in-group can be manipulated rather easily and it's a very powerful force. Which is why it is wielded so often across multiple areas of society. School, religion, business, communities, cults, etc. The risks and consequences just happen to be much higher for LEO/military personnel. There are both advantages and disadvantages of family allegiances.

[Now who’s the dean?]

Arrest record has him listed as a Hispanic kid. Not sure if that matters.

He looks white. Which is what matters.

[Bo Diddley]

at the end of the day, police officers are not conscripted. nobody hides that this is a low paying, stressful job with serious risks. we should not expect that police officers react to stressful situations in the same way a civilian would--we should expect they react with a heightened ability to assess, deescalate and to stop wielding a badge as an authority hammer, including by being willing to put themselves at more risk than you or i would to help people, including suspects. instead, we've got a self-selected population of people who experience far above average rates of substance abuse and domestic violence, and who view the citizen populace they serve as the enemy. there's nobody and nothing that can fix that until that culture is rooted out.

by the way, the one person in this thread who i believe has actually worked as a leo (bo diddley) agrees that there is a problem with police culture. he may disagree with me about the extent to which that problem contributes to current behaviors, but something is broke.

There's a culture problem within the police community, but it's very complex, and i don't completely understand it. It begs discussion and solutions.

There are also so many awesome people and awesome things our police are and do. Like everything else, it's a mixed bag.

I also believe we have a culture problem in the greater context of our country, with respect to our views on police and what we ask them to do. I'm uneasy with the automatic siding with authority that so many people do. It seems like tribalism, as do some of the anti police reactions going on right now. With my libertarian leaning, I prefer a more hands off approach, and smaller government. (Says the lifelong government worker.)

[myboynoah]

There's a culture problem within the police community, but it's very complex, and i don't completely understand it. It begs discussion and solutions.

There are also so many awesome people and awesome things our police are and do. Like everything else, it's a mixed bag.

I also believe we have a culture problem in the greater context of our country, with respect to our views on police and what we ask them to do. I'm uneasy with the automatic siding with authority that so many people do. It seems like tribalism, as do some of the anti police reactions going on right now. With my libertarian leaning, I prefer a more hands off approach, and smaller government. (Says the lifelong government worker.)

lol

I love you Bo.

[PaloAltoCougar]

lol

I love you Bo.

Ditto. Self-awareness/self-deprecation is always a winner.

[old_gregg]

There's a culture problem within the police community, but it's very complex, and i don't completely understand it. It begs discussion and solutions.

There are also so many awesome people and awesome things our police are and do. Like everything else, it's a mixed bag.

I also believe we have a culture problem in the greater context of our country, with respect to our views on police and what we ask them to do. I'm uneasy with the automatic siding with authority that so many people do. It seems like tribalism, as do some of the anti police reactions going on right now. With my libertarian leaning, I prefer a more hands off approach, and smaller government. (Says the lifelong government worker.)

i don’t think we disagree about anything here

[Commando]

Arrest record has him listed as a Hispanic kid. Not sure if that matters.

Well, hispanic = white unless there is dominant indigenous heritage. Also, George Zimmerman is half-Peruvian. I think it pretty much doesn't matter at all.