ICE ICE baby - the immigration thread

[falafel]

Do you think illegal immigrants have the right to vote?

NO. And this isn't a part of that. Don't confuse the issues.

[myboynoah]

I would agree that he seems like a decent guy. However, decent people with CCWs sometimes do really dumb things.

Anyway, it's been interesting to watch friends on both sides jump to immediate conclusions, comfortably portray themselves as experts on the use of force, and let nuance fall by the wayside. There's plenty of that in this thread.

I ran across this article. It's a long read, but worth it. With a caveat or two, it reflects my view that there is plenty of blame to be heaped on both sides.


https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/al...jxrvdu3_lT-wbA

I read it!

I believe the shooting was technically justified legally (like 50.5%, just over 50-50), but barely, and there is enough there to rule it as such. But it’s a very close call, and I see why people are upset about it. I don’t like this shooting. If the gun discharged accidentally, as some think, my percentage grows for the officer (but that’s unproven.

If we can get a 50.5% score for the shooting being "technically justified legally" from a very right-leaning publication that maintains a "Biden Harris Criminal Immigration Files" tab and a gallery of standard MAGA opinion pieces, then I see that as "technically not justified legally" for most of the population, and plenty of former law enforcement officers that have come forward to offer their opinions.

But frankly, none of these opinions matter in the legal sense. An open, joint state and federal investigation/review of what happened, and even a trial, would be able to resolve that for us. I would very much like to see that happen. I hope those who believe it was legally justified want the same thing. But I just don't have much confidence that Trump will allow that to happen. What a travesty that would be.

But my opinion doesn't need to hew to a fine legal definition. I know what I see in all the videos, which aligns closely with how the right-leaning Wall Street Journal editorial board described how they saw it:

Videos of an event aren’t always definitive, but this is how it looks to us. Pretti attempted, foolishly, to assist a woman who had been pepper-sprayed by agents. Multiple agents then tackled Pretti, and he had a phone in one hand as he lay on the ground. An agent discovered a concealed gun on Pretti, and disarmed him. An agent then shot Pretti, and multiple shots followed.

. . . . .

Pretti made a tragic mistake by interfering with ICE agents, but that warranted arrest, not a death sentence. The agents may say they felt threatened, but it’s worth noting the comments over the weekend by police around the country who say that this isn’t how they conduct law enforcement.

What the hell?!?

A good man is dead, shot ten times while lying on his face in the street. That is fucked up.

If we hire people and give them lethal force, they need to answer to a much higher standard than just "Oh man, I felt threatened." And we need total transparency and cooperation with local authorities in any investigation.

[Shaka]

But it isn't simple is it. Never is, never will be. Any suggestion to the contrary is juvenile. His rights as a citizen were violated and he was needlessly shot and killed.

Had he done what I posted, he'd still be alive. Had he followed his training and the law, as a CCW permit holder, he'd still be alive.

It really is that simple.

[falafel]

I would agree that he seems like a decent guy. However, decent people with CCWs sometimes do really dumb things.

Anyway, it's been interesting to watch friends on both sides jump to immediate conclusions, comfortably portray themselves as experts on the use of force, and let nuance fall by the wayside. There's plenty of that in this thread.

I ran across this article. It's a long read, but worth it. With a caveat or two, it reflects my view that there is plenty of blame to be heaped on both sides.


https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/al...jxrvdu3_lT-wbA

Very nice of you to call him "decent".

Pray tell, what is the nuance that we are missing in this thread? If you can observe the "nuance" that other so-called experts cannot, I am sure we would all be edified.

[Northwestcoug]

Protestors, a right guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Maybe you have never read it, or it has been some time. So here you go:



dabrock, if you are entitled to your own views on things. But assume for one second that the Biden admin (or WORSE! The Harris admin) sent federal agents to Ohio to conduct some activity you disagreed vehemently with. In fact, assume that you view their actions as an "attack within our country from evil POS hell bent to destroy what America is." Will dabrockster sit by, inside his house, while something he feels is anathema to his very beliefs as an AMERICAN takes place out on the streets of his town, and do nothing?

No fucking way. Not the dabrockster we know and love. You would fight for your family, your friends, your ideals. And you would be right to do so. That is all these people are doing.

"You are them" is a terrible statement my friend. It separates us into opposing groups, one group being the POS hell bent on destroying "what America is." There is no monolith of America. It is different things to every one of the 350M+ Americans. Yes, lots of people want to change America - including republicans who ran on an America First campaign. America has long been the moral authority in the world, but those politicians wanted to "change what America is", or as some would see it, to "destroy what America is".

Please, do not "other" people who disagree with you. It only makes it easier to hate them and dehumanize them. And that is certainly not what America is.

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Dammit, I'll never figure out how to post large gifs

[Northwestcoug]

Had he done what I posted, he'd still be alive. Had he followed his training and the law, as a CCW permit holder, he'd still be alive.

It really is that simple.

If ICE/CBP hadn't overreacted and realized that one one of their very own had already disarmed Pretti, he would still be alive.

That is pretty simple also.

[tooblue]

Had he done what I posted, he'd still be alive. Had he followed his training and the law, as a CCW permit holder, he'd still be alive.

It really is that simple.

And had the officers followed their training he'd be alive correct? Unless of course, they were not trained, or they were trained improperly to violate citizens rights:

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...evade-lawsuits

Again, any suggestion that it is simple, is juvenile.

[Shaka]

I read it!

Wait.... you can read? When did this happen?

A good man is dead, shot ten times while lying on his face in the street. That is fucked up.

If we hire people and give them lethal force, they need to answer to a much higher standard than just "Oh man, I felt threatened." And we need total transparency and cooperation with local authorities in any investigation.

As the article pointed out, they are held to a "reasonable" standard. Hopefully, an investigation will provide illumination. Knee-jerk responses aren't helpful. Not recognizing that Pretti made mistakes isn't helpful either.

[Moliere]

Yes, Trump can declare victory, get the feds out, blame some scapegoats, and pivot to put focus back on investigating the fraud.

I do wonder if we'll see any more of these "let’s flood the zone with ICE and CBP thugs on the street" deployments. Certainly not any until after November.

My hope is that this really tanks the GOP for the midterms and results in the house and senate flipping blue. Then we have live in stalemate land for two years and hopefully kind of neuter Trump.

One unfortunate thing to come out of this is the spotlight is no longer on the alleged fraud, which seems very credibly like fraud. So while I’m sure the fraud will be investigated, the repercussions will be limited.

Im also finding the killing of Alex to be absolutely despicable and unwarranted as I read more accounts of what happened. Regardless of him carrying a weapon, he never went for it or upholstered it. It wasn’t until he was relieved of the weapon by an officer that they opened fire. All of those officers should stand trial for what they did.

[Shaka]

Very nice of you to call him "decent".

I'll restate:

I would agree that he seems like a decent guy and was within a hair's breadth of having his calling and election made sure.

Does that satisfy you?

[myboynoah]

Had he done what I posted, he'd still be alive. Had he followed his training and the law, as a CCW permit holder, he'd still be alive.

It really is that simple.

No, the onus is on the people we pay and train to carry out law enforcement in this country to not shoot and kill us. Had they followed best practices and training Pretti would be alive today according to opinions of many current and former law enforcement officers. Is it standard procedure to pursue people and shove them down? What move is that? What does that accomplish? That looked like a bunch of keystone cops, 5-6 of them trying to get Pretti down and subdued. Did that go to according to training?

Maybe they weren't training sufficiently, which is a good possibility as Trump is hastily onboarding new officers. Or maybe CBP is a total mismatch for dealing with protesters, which is very probable as they are usually posted at the southern border to catch illegal immigration. Nonetheless, the onus is on them not to shoot and kill us, especially if we are lying face down in the street.

[bluegoose]

I'll restate:

I would agree that he seems like a decent guy and was within a hair's breadth of having his calling and election made sure.

Does that satisfy you?

Add in "innocent" to that description and I think you're good.

[falafel]

Wait.... you can read? When did this happen?



As the article pointed out, they are held to a "reasonable" standard. Hopefully, an investigation will provide illumination. Knee-jerk responses aren't helpful. Not recognizing that Pretti made mistakes isn't helpful either.

The standard should be a "reasonable doubt", i.e., the standard for a criminal trial.

[Northwestcoug]

Add in "innocent" to that description and I think you're good.

I think Shaka said the jury is still out on whether he deserved to die...

[falafel]

I'll restate:

I would agree that he seems like a decent guy and was within a hair's breadth of having his calling and election made sure.

Does that satisfy you?

No, and I'm not sure why you would think it would. Why don't you be a little more trivial regarding this man who was shot 10 times after he was wrestled to the ground by 6-8 federal agents and his 2nd-amendment protected and non-brandished firearm was removed from his body. THAT is when the shooting happened. But man, what an idiot this guy was! If he had only followed Shaka's advice (which sounds like would be to refrain from exercising his First and Second amendment rights), he would be alive right now.