A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To Jerusalem: Gaza/Israel conflict

[Color Me Badd Fan]

This has the potential to backfire for Israel. Keeping water from civilians (even if some of those civilians are holding your citizens hostage) can look bad once kids and old ladies start dying of thirst.

Hamas/Gaza should have thought about that before going into Israel and started killing babies and old women. Seriously, they rely on Israel for water and power and thought "let's go on murderous rampage, nothing will happen." This is the ultimate FAFO moment. I'm totally shocked that type of people who thought it was a good idea to elect Hamas to run your government aren't capable of getting their own water and producing their own power. Then the story comes out today that these idiots were refashioning large water and sewage pipes into canisters for rockets and munitions. Undoubtedly Israel wanted everyone to see this.

[Non Sequitur]

Hamas needs those things to fight a war. By taking it away it makes it easier for Israel to defeat Hamas. From a military perspective it is the proper tactical decision to make.

People can flee into Egypt all they want-Egypt won't take them.

And civilians need those things to live. Proper tactical decision? Give me a fucking break.

[Omaha 680]

I understand everyone's feelings. I share them as a sane, rational person who values life. But the last couple pages of this thread are very indicative of western projection of our values onto leaders who don't share them and a complete misunderstanding of the literal existential struggle Israel finds itself in. They have no choice but absolute victory over and destruction of Hamas. Anything less will be an open invitation to terrorist groups to open up other fronts in the war which would be very likely to draw in Syria and Iran. They could eventually get in anyway but the most likely way to keep them out is to crush Hamas now.

[Omaha 680]

I wonder if it’ll look worse than shooting babies and holding hundreds of civilians hostage and killing thousands of unarmed civilians. At least Israel is giving Hamas the choice to have their people suffer or not. Israel wasn’t given the choice.

Of course Hamas will choose to let their people suffer. They literally WANT more death and destruction in Gaza. First because they are fanatics who think all the dead are martyrs who will be rewarded and second because they want to use it to turn the world against Israel. If they cared at all about their people they would have spent more of the billions in international aid to improve Gaza infrastructure instead of siphoning off as much as possible to fund terror, place their military installations in hospitals and schools, and honeycomb the strip with terror tunnels. The Arab world doesn't care about them either. Egypt has rejected out of hand the possibility of taking in refugees and this is only the latest example. It's horrifying to acknowledge but Gaza is a failed experiment. The only way to conceivably get to livable conditions there some day is to recognize and deal in reality.

[Non Sequitur]

I understand everyone's feelings. I share them as a sane, rational person who values life. But the last couple pages of this thread are very indicative of western projection of our values onto leaders who don't share them and a complete misunderstanding of the literal existential struggle Israel finds itself in. They have no choice but absolute victory over and destruction of Hamas. Anything less will be an open invitation to terrorist groups to open up other fronts in the war which would be very likely to draw in Syria and Iran. They could eventually get in anyway but the most likely way to keep them out is to crush Hamas now.

When you say absolute victory and destruction of Hamas, what does that look like? Kill all Palestinians in Gaza? I guess that will destroy Hamas. It's horrific what Hamas has done, and there is no way to condone it, but I worry when I see people who oppose Hamas get caught up in the bloodlust that started this whole thing.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I understand everyone's feelings. I share them as a sane, rational person who values life. But the last couple pages of this thread are very indicative of western projection of our values onto leaders who don't share them and a complete misunderstanding of the literal existential struggle Israel finds itself in. They have no choice but absolute victory over and destruction of Hamas. Anything less will be an open invitation to terrorist groups to open up other fronts in the war which would be very likely to draw in Syria and Iran. They could eventually get in anyway but the most likely way to keep them out is to crush Hamas now.

The US and Britain firebombed German and Japanese cities. I realize that some people reexamine whether the allies should have done this, but the weapons at the time were much more indiscriminate and there was undoubtedly a military rationale, it's an extreme extension of Sherman's rationale behind his march to the sea. You have to ruin and overwhelm your enemy's capacity and appetite for war. But like WWII and the Civil War, the side receiving the firebombing/destruction of its cities and industrial capacity started these wars and the people of these countries, at least initially, supported their leaders starting these wars. Israel isn't doing anything remotely as heinous as firebombing Dresden, yet the western countries, including the allies that did this only 80 years ago, are holding Israel accountable for every Palestinian civilian life lost, even when Hamas commonly places their operations around schools, hospitals, etc?

[Jeff Lebowski]

When you say absolute victory and destruction of Hamas, what does that look like? Kill all Palestinians in Gaza? I guess that will destroy Hamas. It's horrific what Hamas has done, and there is no way to condone it, but I worry when I see people who oppose Hamas get caught up in the bloodlust that started this whole thing.

What would you do? Please be specific.

[Omaha 680]

When you say absolute victory and destruction of Hamas, what does that look like? Kill all Palestinians in Gaza? I guess that will destroy Hamas. It's horrific what Hamas has done, and there is no way to condone it, but I worry when I see people who oppose Hamas get caught up in the bloodlust that started this whole thing.

Kill all the Hamas leadership and any Hamas fighter who won't surrender. Destroy all Hamas infrastructure, military or otherwise. It does not matter that they were elected nearly 20 years ago. They should be treated like the Nazi party. Yes, this will be very challenging and there will be suffering, but it is nowhere near killing all the Palestinians in Gaza. No sane person wants suffering, but I truly believe destroying Hamas now will lead to less overall suffering (among Israelis and Palestinians) in the long term than any cease fire.

I know you disagree. Sincerely asking, what would you do if you had to make the decision on the strategy going forward from this current reality?

[Omaha 680]

Another point on the outcry against Israel for shutting off the water and power. In addition to trying to inform and direct civilians to neighborhoods away from the targets they are hitting, Israel would allow civilians to evacuate to Egypt. Does anyone think for a moment there wouldn't be billions of dollars of international aid immediately available to care for and house the refugees in Egypt during this conflict if that became a reality? But Egypt will not allow it. So Hamas intentionally places their civilians and babies in harm's way and tells them not to evacuate, and the closest Arab neighbor locks the door to anyone who wants to flee the conflict. This is important context.

[old_gregg]

, but I worry when I see people who oppose Hamas get caught up in the bloodlust that started this whole thing.

yeah so the bloodlust that started this whole thing was the planned, targeted and intentional brutal killings of noncombatants, including the decapitation of babies, rape of women, execution of toddlers, etc. you can rest easy that idf targeted tactical action against military targets, located though they may be in areas of civilian concentration because hamas intentionally located them in places designed such that retaliatory action will necessarily inflict maximum collateral damage on its own people, is morally distinguishable.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Another point on the outcry against Israel for shutting off the water and power. In addition to trying to inform and direct civilians to neighborhoods away from the targets they are hitting, Israel would allow civilians to evacuate to Egypt. Does anyone think for a moment there wouldn't be billions of dollars of international aid immediately available to care for and house the refugees in Egypt during this conflict if that became a reality? But Egypt will not allow it. So Hamas intentionally places their civilians and babies in harm's way and tells them not to evacuate, and the closest Arab neighbor locks the door to anyone who wants to flee the conflict. This is important context.

Egypt is being pragmatic. If they allow the Palestinians to cross the border, how would they ever get them to go back? They would most likely settle in to create an expanded Gaza territory and continue to fire rockets, etc from Egyptian soil which would do nothing but bring the fight to Egypt. I don't blame them for closing the border.

[Omaha 680]

Egypt is being pragmatic. If they allow the Palestinians to cross the border, how would they ever get them to go back? They would most likely settle in to create an expanded Gaza territory and continue to fire rockets, etc from Egyptian soil which would do nothing but bring the fight to Egypt. I don't blame them for closing the border.

Correct. After 10 years of fighting the Muslim Brotherhood and watching various other countries like Jordan get burned when taking in large numbers of Palestinian refugees, Egypt is practicing self-preservation. I only point it out as context that while the entire region contributed to creating the Palestinian refugee problem, Israel is expected to solve the problem alone and put their own people in mortal danger in the process.

[USUC]

Egypt is being pragmatic. If they allow the Palestinians to cross the border, how would they ever get them to go back? They would most likely settle in to create an expanded Gaza territory and continue to fire rockets, etc from Egyptian soil which would do nothing but bring the fight to Egypt. I don't blame them for closing the border.

Anyone who isnt familiar with it, read up on the Black September between Jordan and the PLO. Simply put, Egypt doesn't want that noise.

[Maximus]

Egypt is being pragmatic. If they allow the Palestinians to cross the border, how would they ever get them to go back? They would most likely settle in to create an expanded Gaza territory and continue to fire rockets, etc from Egyptian soil which would do nothing but bring the fight to Egypt. I don't blame them for closing the border.

I don't think it'd be hard to filter coming in...they just don't want them. No one does ...they destabilized jordan a while ago , they all just want israel to take the blame for not taking care of them

[old_gregg]

I don't think it'd be hard to filter coming in...they just don't want them. No one does ...they destabilized jordan a while ago , they all just want israel to take the blame for not taking care of them

it would be impossible to filter them coming in, not just because it's impossible to tell a hamas militant from a civilian but also because some large portion of the population that has consented to being governed by and otherwise supported the actions of hamas for 20 years and is otherwise committed to the eradication of a jewish state are radical militants in waiting. the features of the asymmetric warfare waged by hamas and radical groups everywhere is also what makes those populations impossible to incorporate into a society that aspires to relative stability.