Transgender issues and discussions

[All-American]

I agree with Governor Cox's admonition to proceed cautiously and with empathy. I still do. He wrote that letter 3 years ago. Since then we have seen a trans woman who wasn't even competitive as a male, switch genders and win a women's NCAA title. You have a trans woman take a spot on a college volleyball team and be one of the best players in the league. There are some very egregious cases of biological boys dominating HS girls track in New England. It is disingenuous to imply that it is a just a few highly isolated cases and that it will remain that way. This is also why public sentiment has changed so drastically to where 79% of Americans are in agreement on this. You also need to find some newer material. Governor Cox is now strongly in support of protecting women's sports. One example:

https://governor.utah.gov/press/stat...womens-sports/

Actually, the swimmer was competing in women's swimming even before Governor Cox issued his statement (which specifically references that case).

When Governor Cox issued his statement in 2022, out of 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah, there was one transgender student playing women's sports. As of December, the NCAA president reported that there were less than ten transgender athletes among the 500,000+ NCAA athletes. To me, that still seems pretty "isolated."

I also feel pretty comfortable suggesting that caution and empathy remain in short supply in this debate.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Actually, the swimmer was competing in women's swimming even before Governor Cox issued his statement (which specifically references that case).

When Governor Cox issued his statement in 2022, out of 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah, there was one transgender student playing women's sports. As of December, the NCAA president reported that there were less than ten transgender athletes among the 500,000+ NCAA athletes. To me, that still seems pretty "isolated."

I also feel pretty comfortable suggesting that caution and empathy remain in short supply in this debate.

Now add up and include all the transgender athletes in HS. Then add up all the female athletes who are losing roster slots or losing competitions to biological males. Is your message to these women, "Hey, sorry you lost your opportunity. But there aren't enough of you for us to care."?

Which of course, brings us back to the question raised by BFM. If your argument is, "this only affects a small number of people", doesn't that cut both ways? Do the rights of the biological males trump the rights of the women and girls? If so, why?

Yeah, you can argue that there is some bigotry in that 79% number. But the vast majority of people see it as a fundamental issue of fairness.

[dabrockster]

This question makes me think about what Governor Cox said when he vetoed HB11:



https://governor.utah.gov/press/gov-...-vetoing-hb11/

This argument can easily be flipped to be kind, merciful and understanding to the impact on girls. But let’s look at this from one perspective.

I find this to me a Red herring to the true issue.

[All-American]

I find this to me a Red herring to the true issue.

Agreed.

[dabrockster]

I will keep beating this drum. Over 1,000 medals, championships for girls have been lost to biological males. This has increased significantly since your numbers in 2022. And your obvious ignoring of the HS data.

To think this is going to decrease or stay the same is naive.. A d to lump this into bigotry when it has always been about fairness is just another deflection to the issue and the validity of this whole issue.

[All-American]

I will keep beating this drum. Over 1,000 medals, championships for girls have been lost to biological males. This has increased significantly since your numbers in 2022. And your obvious ignoring of the HS data.

To think this is going to decrease or stay the same is naive.. A d to lump this into bigotry when it has always been about fairness is just another deflection to the issue and the validity of this whole issue.

Ok, you piqued my curiosity here.

1,000 medals and championships. An impressively big number. Where does it come from? And how do they reach that figure? How many events, over how many states, over how many years?

A quick google search shows references to what appears to be the common source of the cited statistic: a study published by the United Nations in August 2024, entitled "Violence against women and girls, its causes and consequences." Paragraph 11 reads:

Policies implemented by international federations and national governing bodies, along with national legislation in some countries, allow males who identify as women to compete in female sports categories.28 In other cases, this practice is not explicitly prohibited and is thus tolerated in practice. The replacement of the female sports category with a mixed-sex category has resulted in an increasing number of female athletes losing opportunities, including medals, when competing against males. According to information received, by 30 March 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than 400 competitions have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different sports.29

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/g...f/n2424994.pdf

Footnote 29, the source cited for the number 890, gives this source:

"Submission from Women’s Liberation Front, International Consortium on Female Sport and Dianne Post on behalf of Lavender Patch."

That submission, linked below, doesn't use the figure 890, but says that "An organization formed to keep track of males claiming victory in female sports has identified over 900 instances in which males deprived female athletes of records, scholarships, or other opportunities, many of those involving female sport in the United States."

https://womensliberationfront.org/s/...WG-comment.pdf

"Lost opportunities"-- not quite the same as championships and medals, but still. Also still missing is a specific citation to the organization or the underlying data. Still don't know who is making the claim, how broad is the data, how long they have been collecting it, how far back they go, how many different kinds of competition are included, etc.

As it turns out, though, the UN submission has a hidden link. Seriously. When you open the document, you can click on the word "Submission" in footnote 29, and it takes you to another website:

https://www.shewon.org/

The page is a compiled list of self-submitted entries, now up to 1086, from competitions of various kinds around the world, dating back to the year 2001. Entrants make the list if they are even bumped down the list (over three hundred entrants on the list were deprived of "third place"-- and many times, there are three different entries for a single event, indicating the trans athlete took first and bumped three different individuals). "Sports competitions" include track, cycling, golf, croquet, darts, disc golf, esports, snooker and billiards, poker, and (I'm not making this up) Irish dancing.

Can we agree that this statistic is just the teensiest bit . . . contrived?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wow, I can’t believe you are still going with this numbers argument.

[All-American]

Wow, I can’t believe you are still going with this numbers argument.

Why wouldn’t I? The numbers are on my side. The amount of attention this issue gets is vastly disproportionate to the scope of the problem. I’m surprised you think that is controversial.

[Shaka]

If you're right about the numbers, nipping it in the bud is the applicable term. It's a problem that was only going to get worse.

[dabrockster]

Interesting article about two cases in Cali. In both cases. These Trans took spots from biological girls where before they were not competitive on the men’s team. One of the trans-athlete even boast of this and calls the girls protesting them a bitch.

The point. It is about fairness and a biological male taking spots. Even their own teammates disagree and see it being unfair.

https://www.aol.com/news/two-transge...110038062.html

If we are all about equality. Create a trans-division and let it grow. Rather than inserting in girls sports. If we are all about inclusiveness.

[YOhio]

Why wouldn’t I? The numbers are on my side. The amount of attention this issue gets is vastly disproportionate to the scope of the problem. I’m surprised you think that is controversial.

I think both sides could offer a bit more charity to the intentions of the other, at least acknowledging that the other is seeking to protect who they view as the more vulnerable population. But when your position is that women have the absolute right to sex-segregated spaces and opportunities the scope of the problem is largely irrelevant. Athletics is a common example because of how offensive it is to the principles of fair play. But it's not just there. The New York Times had this amazing paragraph in an article about Trump's ban on transgender women from female prisons.

The number of people affected is relatively small. There are about 1,500 federal prisoners who are transgender women, according to the Bureau of Prisons. But they represent an outsize portion of federal inmates, especially among female prisoners: 15 percent of women in prison are transgender. There are 750 transgender men out of about 144,000 male prisoners.

Transgender people make up less than 1 percent of adults in the United States, according to the Williams Institute, a research center at the University of California, Los Angeles, law school that studies the L.G.B.T.Q. population. It is unclear why the number is higher in federal prisons, but experts point to studies that show transgender people are more likely to attract attention from law enforcement. They are also more likely to face family rejection and economic hardship.

[beefytee]

Interesting article about two cases in Cali. In both cases. These Trans took spots from biological girls where before they were not competitive on the men’s team. One of the trans-athlete even boast of this and calls the girls protesting them a bitch.

The point. It is about fairness and a biological male taking spots. Even their own teammates disagree and see it being unfair.

https://www.aol.com/news/two-transge...110038062.html

If we are all about equality. Create a trans-division and let it grow. Rather than inserting in girls sports. If we are all about inclusiveness.

I’m onboard with limited protection for women’s sports. We need to be very careful about who is allowed to participate.

But arguing that a boy taking a spot from a girl where there wasn’t a position for the boy in the men’s sport is a very flimsy argument when we are talking about equality.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Why wouldn’t I? The numbers are on my side. The amount of attention this issue gets is vastly disproportionate to the scope of the problem. I’m surprised you think that is controversial.

I would respect an argument based on some kind of principle. One side is arguing from a position of fairness and safeguarding opportunities for women. I can at least understand an argument from the other side on the basis of empathy or something. But I cannot respect an argument that is based on “hey it doesn’t happen very often and nobody cares about women’s sports anyway.”

[Jeff Lebowski]

Here’s another way to look at it. Several female swimmers who were forced to share a changing room with Lia Thomas and be exposed to his genitalia and then lost to him in the NCAA championship have sued the NCAA and the Ivy league. Do you anticipate that their legal defense is going to be “this doesn’t happen very often ”? Ha.

[frank ryan]

Here’s another way to look at it. Several female swimmers who were forced to share a changing room with Lia Thomas and be exposed to his genitalia and then lost to him in the NCAA championship have sued the NCAA and the Ivy league. Do you anticipate that their legal defense is going to be “this doesn’t happen very often ”? Ha.

Yeah, that's not good.