2024 Presidential Election Thread

[falafel]

TriplePops and I are really close. (Not that way, sickos!) I think i'll be fine.

I heard he goes by TripleGramps now.

[dabrockster]

Don't let a grand jury indictment predispose you to a belief of guilt. As any lawyer has been taught, an even half-competent prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. The only remarkable thing about the indictment is that the grand jury rejected one of the three counts the prosecutor presented. i'll go out on a very short limb here and say Comey walks away from this. And i dislike very much what Comey did during his tenure.

I would say it is fairly notable that 2 of the 3 were pursued. But it is in the eye of the beholder. That seems more remarkable to me.

[chrisrenrut]

I would say it is fairly notable that 2 of the 3 were pursued. But it is in the eye of the beholder. That seems more remarkable to me.

I guess the one that was thrown out was less suspicious than a ham sandwich.

[dabrockster]

I’ll play along Brock. I think the actions that Biden’s family and inner circle played before the 2024 election resembles a scandal similar in scope to Trump’s claim that the 2020 election was rigged, if that were true. Which of course is false. But knowingly obscuring a candidate’s health so close to a national election should lead to investigations.

but to ‘both sides’ it even more, Biden’s scandal is not as bad as Trump’s insurrection attempt in 2021. And his widescale J6 pardons, and firings and prosecutions of his political enemies. There is just no valid comparison, either to Biden or any president of our lifetimes.

While I agree with you on the J6 pardons. Let’s not pretend the massive pre-emptive pardons Biden did for his entire family and other political people that were unnecessary, as well as over 4,200 pardons/commutations.

And let’s be honest, Biden and any other administration fired and removed staff who did not agree with their vision.

[falafel]

While I agree with you on the J6 pardons. Let’s not pretend the massive pre-emptive pardons Biden did for his entire family and other political people that were unnecessary, as well as over 4,200 pardons/commutations.

And let’s be honest, Biden and any other administration fired and removed staff who did not agree with their vision.

A few things:

1. is 4200 pardons/commutations a lot compared to other Presidents?
2. If the pardons were "unnecessary", what's the problem?
3. I have no idea whether Biden fired staff who did not "agree with their vision". Are you referring to any specific firing(s)? I would love to look into what you are talking about.

[falafel]

I would say it is fairly notable that 2 of the 3 were pursued. But it is in the eye of the beholder. That seems more remarkable to me.

When someone is charged with a crime, do you automatically assume they did it? No presumption of innocence for Brock?

[dabrockster]

When someone is charged with a crime, do you automatically assume they did it? No presumption of innocence for Brock?

No. He will have his day in court. An indictment does not constitute guilt. I think he is a shady individual who allowed his own personal feelings to make calls that he should not have. I also think he blew up Hilary’s chance which was shocking. But all the insidious wire taping, spying on a siting President etc. Not sure we have seen such actions ever. We will see what happens.

[Copelius]

A few things:

1. is 4200 pardons/commutations a lot compared to other Presidents?
2. If the pardons were "unnecessary", what's the problem?
3. I have no idea whether Biden fired staff who did not "agree with their vision". Are you referring to any specific firing(s)? I would love to look into what you are talking about.

1-Biden pardoned/commuted more than any other president besides Andrew Johnson, whose pardons included ex-Confederates and not by a little. The next closest after him were Truman, Wilson and Obama, who were all around 2k. Wikipedia did exclude over 200k draft dodgers that Cater pardoned, so there is that.
2-We'll never know if they were necessary because they cannot be prosecuted now.
3-I highly doubt that any president has kept around staff that didn't "agree with their vision." Nor should they be required to, especially the higher the staff is in authority.

[Northwestcoug]

While I agree with you on the J6 pardons. Let’s not pretend the massive pre-emptive pardons Biden did for his entire family and other political people that were unnecessary, as well as over 4,200 pardons/commutations.

And let’s be honest, Biden and any other administration fired and removed staff who did not agree with their vision.

I lost my remaining respect, such that it was, for Biden with his preemptive family pardons.

However, we are miles apart trying both sides this. If you can find instances where Biden threatens his political enemies with retribution, leans on his DOJ to prosecute them (after his previous investigation came up empty in Comey’s case), then fire DAs who fail to bring indictments against them, and then appoints manifestly unqualified people in their place for the sole purpose of sham indictments, then I’ll listen.

[falafel]

I lost my remaining respect, such that it was, for Biden with his preemptive family pardons.

However, we are miles apart trying both sides this. If you can find instances where Biden threatens his political enemies with retribution, leans on his DOJ to prosecute them (after his previous investigation came up empty in Comey’s case), then fire DAs who fail to bring indictments against them, and then appoints manifestly unqualified people in their place for the sole purpose of sham indictments, then I’ll listen.

Well, wait a second. Brock doesn't need to agree that Trump has done bad things for it to be true that Biden did bad things.

[falafel]

No. He will have his day in court. An indictment does not constitute guilt. I think he is a shady individual who allowed his own personal feelings to make calls that he should not have. I also think he blew up Hilary’s chance which was shocking. But all the insidious wire taping, spying on a siting President etc. Not sure we have seen such actions ever. We will see what happens.

Where is that info coming from? Was it in the DOJ press release you linked? Or maybe somewhere else?

[falafel]

1-Biden pardoned/commuted more than any other president besides Andrew Johnson, whose pardons included ex-Confederates and not by a little. The next closest after him were Truman, Wilson and Obama, who were all around 2k. Wikipedia did exclude over 200k draft dodgers that Cater pardoned, so there is that.
2-We'll never know if they were necessary because they cannot be prosecuted now.
3-I highly doubt that any president has kept around staff that didn't "agree with their vision." Nor should they be required to, especially the higher the staff is in authority.

Thanks Cope. Rebuttal:

1- Okay. It does seem like that is a relatively unlimited power under the Constitution. I haven't looked into Biden's preemptive pardons, other than being generally aware of them.
2- It seems that Brock has presupposed that they weren't necessary, which is the crux of his issue. If he deemed them unnecessary, then what is the problem? It's simply an empty act. Like sending an envelope with nothing inside.
3- Good point. I would be interested to knowing how many people were fired under Biden for disagreeing with Biden's directives on the grounds that they were illegal.

[myboynoah]

While I agree with you on the J6 pardons. Let’s not pretend the massive pre-emptive pardons Biden did for his entire family and other political people that were unnecessary, as well as over 4,200 pardons/commutations.

And let’s be honest, Biden and any other administration fired and removed staff who did not agree with their vision.

Could you clarify, please?

New administrations bring in their people who replace the people that the last administration brought in. Those are political appointments/positions and everyone expects that to happen. Trump went way, way, way beyond that by firing career civil servants, particularly in the DOJ and FBI, as well as firing the Inspector Generals at every major agency and lower agencies. This has never been done. By doing so, he damaged significantly the legal avenues by which civil servants can challenge the legality of administration actions.

So, if we are being honest, Biden did nothing unusual while Trump stepped far outside accepted, and even legal norms.

[falafel]

Could you clarify, please?

New administrations bring in their people who replace the people that the last administration brought in. Those are political appointments/positions and everyone expects that to happen. Trump went way, way, way beyond that by firing career civil servants, particularly in the DOJ and FBI, as well as firing the Inspector Generals at every major agency and lower agencies. This has never been done. By doing so, he damaged significantly the legal avenues by which civil servants can challenge the legality of administration actions.

So, if we are being honest, Biden did nothing unusual while Trump stepped far outside accepted, and even legal norms.

Well, he did issue 2,000 unnecessary pardons. But since they were unnecessary, there was no impact.

[Northwestcoug]

Well, wait a second. Brock doesn't need to agree that Trump has done bad things for it to be true that Biden did bad things.

Not at all. But he bristled at the perceived hypocrisy of all the current Trump bashing. I understand how someone who looks at the posts here would think that. I’m just trying to put context into my/our relentless anti-Trump posting. Bleeding heart liberal that I am, I still think it’s an easy argument to make that Trump is 2 standard deviations away from US political norms. Biden? One standard deviation? Maybe?