2024 Presidential Election Thread

[falafel]

President has autonomy to fire civil servants and what you claim as political reasons is a bit of a misnomer. He does have the ability to fire and if he believes they are not implementing his vision, that is allowable. Any firing or laying-off of civil servants can be construed to political reasons.

Now. Z the manner in which he did it was not due process and that is another subject.

Well, the problem is that there are lots of federal laws that protect civil servants against firing for political reasons. Trump has been very explicit that he is rooting out anyone that supported a democratic cause, even if they were apolitical. It does not seem right (or legal) to fire a civil servant simply for doing their job. The presidency routinely flips between parties. It cannot be a fireable offense for simply having worked for the government during the prior administration. We can't be turning over the entire civil service every 4-8 years.

[dabrockster]

Firing career civil servants for political reasons is against the law. If the president wants to do that then he needs to persuade Congress to change it. And no, recent past presidents were not conducting mass firings of non political government positions.

President has autonomy to fire civil servants and what you claim as political reasons is a bit of a misnomer. He does have the ability to fire and if he believes they are not implementing his vision, that is allowable. Any firing or laying-off of civil servants can be construed to political reasons.

Now. Z the manner in which he did it was not due process and that is another subject.

[BlueK]

What is interesting is many of you place me in the GOP category when I am far left when it comes to social programs. While I disagree in the current usage of funds, I believe our program need extensive overhaul to get back to the root of who they are supposed to serve. Individuals with disabilities, elderly etc. This also include the priced-out affordability of hiding for these populations. I prefer we increase home and community-based services and reduce the state-owned managed care programs which takes the bulk of the money while those who are most vulnerable deserve more. The mental health population has been discriminated against substantially where we have SPMI-individuals ignored and left on the streets.

What I don’t agree is the method to find everything else that do not fit in the vulnerable population.

As for Biden and firing etc. I did not and do not agree with the firing of IG and appointed positions. Biden fired staff who did not agree. That is my point. Not the ones you stated but again goes to the heart of the crux. I disagree so I MUST agree with all firings. What I don’t agree with is the contempt over firing and removing of civil servants. He has the right and how is it any different than what Clinton did? In fact. I would say he got rid of more than what Trump has tried to do. The Dems fighting every path to be obstructionists is tiresome. They fight every inch. I say fight the important aspects and take the bitter pill for losing the election. Fight the battles of these National Guard crap. That is good. His overly aggressive ICE needs to be checked. But I disagree with their methods and use of their very sophisticated network of protestors to thwart and even support illegals who are in fact criminals. Biden’s abuse on the military for not taking COVID was disgusting. His whole govt-overreach and use a crisis like COVID is another issue.

And you are correct. The level of doom and gloom and pearl-clutching loses is sparkle when that horse is beat to a mush daily. I don’t take anything seriously or find myself rolling my eyes as it’s just a boy blowing his bugle day and night. It get an old. I get there is nothing positive but..

Firing career civil servants for political reasons is against the law. If the president wants to do that then he needs to persuade Congress to change it. And no, recent past presidents were not conducting mass firings of non political government positions.

[Northwestcoug]

What is interesting is many of you place me in the GOP category when I am far left when it comes to social programs. While I disagree in the current usage of funds, I believe our program need extensive overhaul to get back to the root of who they are supposed to serve. Individuals with disabilities, elderly etc. This also include the priced-out affordability of hiding for these populations. I prefer we increase home and community-based services and reduce the state-owned managed care programs which takes the bulk of the money while those who are most vulnerable deserve more. The mental health population has been discriminated against substantially where we have SPMI-individuals ignored and left on the streets.

What I don’t agree is the method to find everything else that do not fit in the vulnerable population.

As for Biden and firing etc. I did not and do not agree with the firing of IG and appointed positions. Biden fired staff who did not agree. That is my point. Not the ones you stated but again goes to the heart of the crux. I disagree so I MUST agree with all firings. What I don’t agree with is the contempt over firing and removing of civil servants. He has the right and how is it any different than what Clinton did? In fact. I would say he got rid of more than what Trump has tried to do. The Dems fighting every path to be obstructionists is tiresome. They fight every inch. I say fight the important aspects and take the bitter pill for losing the election. Fight the battles of these National Guard crap. That is good. His overly aggressive ICE needs to be checked. But I disagree with their methods and use of their very sophisticated network of protestors to thwart and even support illegals who are in fact criminals. Biden’s abuse on the military for not taking COVID was disgusting. His whole govt-overreach and use a crisis like COVID is another issue.

And you are correct. The level of doom and gloom and pearl-clutching loses is sparkle when that horse is beat to a mush daily. I don’t take anything seriously or find myself rolling my eyes as it’s just a boy blowing his bugle day and night. It get an old. I get there is nothing positive but..

If you’re just complaining that I and others are not seeing hypocrisy with just the firing of civil servants, you’re not focusing on the glaring difference between Trump and the rest. He fired DAs who wouldn’t go after his political enemies. One is a DA who successfully won a fraud case against him. Another might be a US senator who what, said mean things about him?

can you find any similar instance with any US president in recent history? Because if this echo chamber is unfairly singling out Trump for things that are supposedly done by other presidents we should know.

[dabrockster]

Not at all. But he bristled at the perceived hypocrisy of all the current Trump bashing. I understand how someone who looks at the posts here would think that. I’m just trying to put context into my/our relentless anti-Trump posting. Bleeding heart liberal that I am, I still think it’s an easy argument to make that Trump is 2 standard deviations away from US political norms. Biden? One standard deviation? Maybe?

What is interesting is many of you place me in the GOP category when I am far left when it comes to social programs. While I disagree in the current usage of funds, I believe our program need extensive overhaul to get back to the root of who they are supposed to serve. Individuals with disabilities, elderly etc. This also include the priced-out affordability of hiding for these populations. I prefer we increase home and community-based services and reduce the state-owned managed care programs which takes the bulk of the money while those who are most vulnerable deserve more. The mental health population has been discriminated against substantially where we have SPMI-individuals ignored and left on the streets.

What I don’t agree is the method to find everything else that do not fit in the vulnerable population.

As for Biden and firing etc. I did not and do not agree with the firing of IG and appointed positions. Biden fired staff who did not agree. That is my point. Not the ones you stated but again goes to the heart of the crux. I disagree so I MUST agree with all firings. What I don’t agree with is the contempt over firing and removing of civil servants. He has the right and how is it any different than what Clinton did? In fact. I would say he got rid of more than what Trump has tried to do. The Dems fighting every path to be obstructionists is tiresome. They fight every inch. I say fight the important aspects and take the bitter pill for losing the election. Fight the battles of these National Guard crap. That is good. His overly aggressive ICE needs to be checked. But I disagree with their methods and use of their very sophisticated network of protestors to thwart and even support illegals who are in fact criminals. Biden’s abuse on the military for not taking COVID was disgusting. His whole govt-overreach and use a crisis like COVID is another issue.

And you are correct. The level of doom and gloom and pearl-clutching loses is sparkle when that horse is beat to a mush daily. I don’t take anything seriously or find myself rolling my eyes as it’s just a boy blowing his bugle day and night. It get an old. I get there is nothing positive but..

[frank ryan]

Trump Pardoned not just the J6 rebels but also bad people like Roger Stone and Steve Bannon. They remain part of his circle of trust along Nazi sympathizer snd Unite the Right Organizer, Jack Posebiec.
He also pardoned Gov Blagojevich, the super crooked ex-governor from Illinois. He was a dem, so I'm sure Trump got a handsome donation.

[myboynoah]

Well, he did issue 2,000 unnecessary pardons. But since they were unnecessary, there was no impact.

Yeah, but I have little issue with pardons, other than I don't care for what they have become under presidents of both parties.

I was speaking to the suggestion that Biden fired a bunch of government workers because they didn't agree with him. His actions were no different than his predecessors (even Trump I). Trump II has gone miles beyond any other administration in recent history in the respect.

[falafel]

Not at all. But he bristled at the perceived hypocrisy of all the current Trump bashing. I understand how someone who looks at the posts here would think that. I’m just trying to put context into my/our relentless anti-Trump posting. Bleeding heart liberal that I am, I still think it’s an easy argument to make that Trump is 2 standard deviations away from US political norms. Biden? One standard deviation? Maybe?

Ha, it wasn't even your comment! MBN can speak for himself.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Not at all. But he bristled at the perceived hypocrisy of all the current Trump bashing. I understand how someone who looks at the posts here would think that. I’m just trying to put context into my/our relentless anti-Trump posting. Bleeding heart liberal that I am, I still think it’s an easy argument to make that Trump is 2 standard deviations away from US political norms. Biden? One standard deviation? Maybe?

That sounds about right.

[Northwestcoug]

Well, wait a second. Brock doesn't need to agree that Trump has done bad things for it to be true that Biden did bad things.

Not at all. But he bristled at the perceived hypocrisy of all the current Trump bashing. I understand how someone who looks at the posts here would think that. I’m just trying to put context into my/our relentless anti-Trump posting. Bleeding heart liberal that I am, I still think it’s an easy argument to make that Trump is 2 standard deviations away from US political norms. Biden? One standard deviation? Maybe?

[falafel]

Could you clarify, please?

New administrations bring in their people who replace the people that the last administration brought in. Those are political appointments/positions and everyone expects that to happen. Trump went way, way, way beyond that by firing career civil servants, particularly in the DOJ and FBI, as well as firing the Inspector Generals at every major agency and lower agencies. This has never been done. By doing so, he damaged significantly the legal avenues by which civil servants can challenge the legality of administration actions.

So, if we are being honest, Biden did nothing unusual while Trump stepped far outside accepted, and even legal norms.

Well, he did issue 2,000 unnecessary pardons. But since they were unnecessary, there was no impact.

[myboynoah]

While I agree with you on the J6 pardons. Let’s not pretend the massive pre-emptive pardons Biden did for his entire family and other political people that were unnecessary, as well as over 4,200 pardons/commutations.

And let’s be honest, Biden and any other administration fired and removed staff who did not agree with their vision.

Could you clarify, please?

New administrations bring in their people who replace the people that the last administration brought in. Those are political appointments/positions and everyone expects that to happen. Trump went way, way, way beyond that by firing career civil servants, particularly in the DOJ and FBI, as well as firing the Inspector Generals at every major agency and lower agencies. This has never been done. By doing so, he damaged significantly the legal avenues by which civil servants can challenge the legality of administration actions.

So, if we are being honest, Biden did nothing unusual while Trump stepped far outside accepted, and even legal norms.

[falafel]

1-Biden pardoned/commuted more than any other president besides Andrew Johnson, whose pardons included ex-Confederates and not by a little. The next closest after him were Truman, Wilson and Obama, who were all around 2k. Wikipedia did exclude over 200k draft dodgers that Cater pardoned, so there is that.
2-We'll never know if they were necessary because they cannot be prosecuted now.
3-I highly doubt that any president has kept around staff that didn't "agree with their vision." Nor should they be required to, especially the higher the staff is in authority.

Thanks Cope. Rebuttal:

1- Okay. It does seem like that is a relatively unlimited power under the Constitution. I haven't looked into Biden's preemptive pardons, other than being generally aware of them.
2- It seems that Brock has presupposed that they weren't necessary, which is the crux of his issue. If he deemed them unnecessary, then what is the problem? It's simply an empty act. Like sending an envelope with nothing inside.
3- Good point. I would be interested to knowing how many people were fired under Biden for disagreeing with Biden's directives on the grounds that they were illegal.

[falafel]

No. He will have his day in court. An indictment does not constitute guilt. I think he is a shady individual who allowed his own personal feelings to make calls that he should not have. I also think he blew up Hilary’s chance which was shocking. But all the insidious wire taping, spying on a siting President etc. Not sure we have seen such actions ever. We will see what happens.

Where is that info coming from? Was it in the DOJ press release you linked? Or maybe somewhere else?

[falafel]

I lost my remaining respect, such that it was, for Biden with his preemptive family pardons.

However, we are miles apart trying both sides this. If you can find instances where Biden threatens his political enemies with retribution, leans on his DOJ to prosecute them (after his previous investigation came up empty in Comey’s case), then fire DAs who fail to bring indictments against them, and then appoints manifestly unqualified people in their place for the sole purpose of sham indictments, then I’ll listen.

Well, wait a second. Brock doesn't need to agree that Trump has done bad things for it to be true that Biden did bad things.