The Mass Shooting Thread

[Eddie]

The gun control debate always has me scratching my head. There are no simple answers. And even finding areas of compromise is extremely difficult - because the reality is that neither side in the debate is truly interested in compromise. Gun control advocates might say they'd accept a certain compromise, but the reality is that for most of them that is just the next step towards progressively more restrictive gun laws. And 2nd amendment advocates might say they'll accept certain compromises - though most are looking at how to reduce gun control laws and aren't really interested in compromising either.

I am 100% on board with reducing gun ownership among the mentally ill. And yet - I also see that as problematic. Good luck in requiring a psychological evaluation as part of the background check. And gun owners who might be struggling with anxiety or depression are unlikely to self-report out of fear of getting themselves on a list that has their guns confiscated permanently. I do like the billboard campaign in Utah - encouraging us to ask people if we can hold onto their guns until they feel safe. And that informal community education action might have a better chance at success (also encouraging people who are having a hard time to ask a friend to hold onto their guns until they are feeling better) than trying to legislate it.

I also recognize that gun ownership isn't and hasn't ever been about hunting or hunting weapons. Maybe in other countries, sure. But in the US gun ownership has always been about an armed populous standing up to the government, if necessary. Don't get me wrong - I recognize that with the well-trained and equipped military, it is a bit ridiculous to think of weekend warriors standing up to them. I do think there are enough guns in the US that if there were ever truly an attempted takeover by the government, the armed populace could make things challenging. But the winners and losers are already known, in my mind. But this isn't about who would win - this is about the purpose of the 2nd amendment. And it isn't hunting, so talking about hunting rifles doesn't seem like a winning argument.

I truly wish there were a place of compromise and an answer that everyone could accept as reducing tragedies while also not eliminating gun ownership rights. But I don't think that's a conversation that will ever be held or a compromise that can ever really be discussed in good faith. Because neither side will stop pushing in spite of any gains made.

[USUC]

The AR-15 is a run of the mill semi automatic rifle with a detachable magazine. That it has become a symbol of pride for some and a symbol of evil by others is cultural phenomenon divorced from the functionality of it. Semi automatic rifles with detachable magazines have been commonplace in the populace since the mid 1900s. I agree it's veneration is creepy and unwarranted and has done more harm to the gun rights movement simply because it's association with knuckle dragging trolls.

With the current court and the Heller ruling about common use, AR-15s aren't going ro be legally taken out of circularion. Perhaps laws regarding magazine size can though.

[Uncle Ted]

The AR-15 is a run of the mill semi automatic rifle with a detachable magazine. That it has become a symbol of pride for some and a symbol of evil by others is cultural phenomenon divorced from the functionality of it. Semi automatic rifles with detachable magazines have been commonplace in the populace since the mid 1900s. I agree it's veneration is creepy and unwarranted and has done more harm to the gun rights movement simply because it's association with knuckle dragging trolls.

With the current court and the Heller ruling about common use, AR-15s aren't going to be legally taken out of circularion. Perhaps laws regarding magazine size can though.

That is correct... they are too easy to make.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The only thing that would save us short of 2A repeal is massive restrictions on gun ownership and use. Registration, licensing, etc. There is zero good reason to have almost no regulations on gun ownership. We would have to fundamentally change our gun worshiping culture before that happens.

[USUC]

Gun crime/violence is not a singular problem with a singular solution. There are fairly distinct differences and causes of different types of gun violence. Suicide is a gigantic category. As is urban crime. The deranged lone wolf mass shooter another. Non urban parts of the country deal with the suicide problem much more so than gunncrime, which is heavily concentrated in urban centers. Each one of these problems require unique strategies to tackle.

If this were the late 1800s, we might have a chance to tackle firearm proliferation. But that ship has long sailed. Guns are here and it does no good to put forth "solutions" that require large scale gun confiscation. 3D printing alone makes it impossible. The country has a circulation problem that registration or licensing won't fix. Solutions must begin with the acknowledgment that guns are out there and if someone wants one, they are most likely going to get one. Not an easy problem to tackle.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Gun crime/violence is not a singular problem with a singular solution. There are fairly distinct differences and causes of different types of gun violence. Suicide is a gigantic category. As is urban crime. The deranged lone wolf mass shooter another. Non urban parts of the country deal with the suicide problem much more so than gunncrime, which is heavily concentrated in urban centers. Each one of these problems require unique strategies to tackle.

If this were the late 1800s, we might have a chance to tackle firearm proliferation. But that ship has long sailed. Guns are here and it does no good to put forth "solutions" that require large scale gun confiscation. 3D printing alone makes it impossible. The country has a circulation problem that registration or licensing won't fix. Solutions must begin with the acknowledgment that guns are out there and if someone wants one, they are most likely going to get one. Not an easy problem to tackle.

Doesn't have to be a perfect solution to make a difference. But it does have to be a big, aggressive solution.

[Northwestcoug]

At this point, nothing short of repeal is going to change the gun culture in America. It's not going to happen any time soon. I doubt it would happen in my childrens' generation. Maybe the next one, if the mass shootings relentlessly continue and enough people get tired of the sickness of the gun religion. Hey, prohibition got repealed.

[Non Sequitur]

Gun crime/violence is not a singular problem with a singular solution. There are fairly distinct differences and causes of different types of gun violence. Suicide is a gigantic category. As is urban crime. The deranged lone wolf mass shooter another. Non urban parts of the country deal with the suicide problem much more so than gunncrime, which is heavily concentrated in urban centers. Each one of these problems require unique strategies to tackle.

If this were the late 1800s, we might have a chance to tackle firearm proliferation. But that ship has long sailed. Guns are here and it does no good to put forth "solutions" that require large scale gun confiscation. 3D printing alone makes it impossible. The country has a circulation problem that registration or licensing won't fix. Solutions must begin with the acknowledgment that guns are out there and if someone wants one, they are most likely going to get one. Not an easy problem to tackle.

A good first step would be to make gun and ammunition ownership insanely expensive. Yeah, there's a lot of guns out there, but the minute you choke off the supply of new guns in the market, guns will get very expensive very quickly. We can't eliminate mentally ill people who want to commit horrific deeds, but we can make it more difficult for them to have the ability to carry out those horrific deeds.

[Jeff Lebowski]

At this point, nothing short of repeal is going to change the gun culture in America. It's not going to happen any time soon. I doubt it would happen in my childrens' generation. Maybe the next one, if the mass shootings relentlessly continue and enough people get tired of the sickness of the gun religion. Hey, prohibition got repealed.

Yeah, I think this is inevitable eventually.

[USUC]

A good first step would be to make gun and ammunition ownership insanely expensive. Yeah, there's a lot of guns out there, but the minute you choke off the supply of new guns in the market, guns will get very expensive very quickly. We can't eliminate mentally ill people who want to commit horrific deeds, but we can make it more difficult for them to have the ability to carry out those horrific deeds.

I'm not sure a tax with the intention making gun purchases feasible to all but the wealthy would be constitutionally sound and would probably be struck down. And choking off supply of new guns means shutting down gun manufacturers who produce legal products that are explicitly protected by the 2nd amendment. Again, I believe there would be constitutional obstacles to this.

[USUC]

At this point, nothing short of repeal is going to change the gun culture in America. It's not going to happen any time soon. I doubt it would happen in my childrens' generation. Maybe the next one, if the mass shootings relentlessly continue and enough people get tired of the sickness of the gun religion. Hey, prohibition got repealed.

Prohibition was not integrally ingrained into the culture of the country from the founding. It was repealed in less than 15 years.

But yes, changes in behavior will take place over generations. But who knows, maybe AI and the surveillance state will snuff out gun violence before the tipping point of repealing the 2nd amendment happens. It's clear that the school shootings are a social contagion, so maybe they are a thing of the past in 20 years.

[Northwestcoug]

Prohibition was not integrally ingrained into the culture of the country from the founding. It was repealed in less than 15 years.

But yes, changes in behavior will take place over generations. But who knows, maybe AI and the surveillance state will snuff out gun violence before the tipping point of repealing the 2nd amendment happens. It's clear that the school shootings are a social contagion, so maybe they are a thing of the past in 20 years.

I.....am not liking where this discussion is going:

R.jfif

[Shaka]

My views fall in line more with JL's. I have no problems with ramping up regulations including licensing, registration, gun show loopholes, restrictions on ownership (felons and documented mentally ill) etc... While I could get behind reasonable magazine limits, I'm not cool with banning a semi-automatic gun because it looks like a military weapon. I find the confusion between semi-automatic and fully automatic baffling.

[Bo Diddley]

A majority of younger people are in favor of gun control to some extent. I think it's simply going to take time before we hit a critical mass in our voting population.

And trying to distinguish between "assault rifles" and other semi-auto rifles is a fool's errand. You ban one, the other will still be available. It's the semi-auto pistol that kills the most people.

[smokymountainrain]

My views fall in line more with JL's. I have no problems with ramping up regulations including licensing, registration, gun show loopholes, restrictions on ownership (felons and documented mentally ill) etc... While I could get behind reasonable magazine limits, I'm not cool with banning a semi-automatic gun because it looks like a military weapon. I find the confusion between semi-automatic and fully automatic baffling.

does anybody want to ban the ar15 due to what it looks like? i mean other than one-off fringe crazies out there on twitter?