LDS Bear traps

[RC Vikings]

Laban was a piece of shit. I'd be all over that one.

I have a hard time blaming Laban. My guess is that he came from a broken home and was never really given a chance.

[FMCoug]

My personal view on the matter is that strength is given in time of need. That apportioned strength is why I believe what I do. I identify with Abraham because of my own experiences (it's hard to explain, but I think most of you know what I mean)

This is my belief as well. I have done things that I said I would "never do" based on the spritual witness that they have been the right thing to do. And I'm sure my experiences pale in comparison to those cited.

As I may have said before, to me, religion is 99% spiritual ... so I don't have a lot to discuss with the intellectuals / apostates. I find some of it interesting but it doesn't really affect my faith.

[Pheidippides]

I have a hard time blaming Laban. My guess is that he came from a broken home and was never really given a chance.

No doubt his dad was an abusive alcoholic too. It's a disease, people. Laban's out drunk in the street, likely at rock bottom or close to it, probably going to resolve to check himself into the 600 BC equivalent of the Betty Ford clinic, and then Wham! some dude robs him of his duds and whacks his head off. Not cool.

[The_Tick]

I have struggles all the time.

Everytime I think of hanging up my hat these two things run through my mind...

1. What will happen to my children.

2. Remember Priesthood blessings.

I would never cast pearls before swine, I have given hundreds of blessings over the years...but I saw things in 2 of em. And they both happened exactly.

Those 2 blessings are really what keeps me in the game.

[byu71]

I'd add, in no particular order:

• subjugation of women, esp. over time (discontinuation of blessings, correlation, temple)

• Historicity of the Book of Mormon and New World Archaeology

• "Political Doctrine" (most recently, Prop. 8)

Not to contradict how you feel, because for you and I know others the feeling is valid. However, I personally don't get the subjugation of women. I really wonder if the percentage of women wearing the pants in the family is any less in the mormon community.

Listen to conference. I would put on my list as to why I might leave the church is the constant chastisement of single men.

[Indy Coug]

I have struggles all the time.

Everytime I think of hanging up my hat these two things run through my mind...

1. What will happen to my children.

2. Remember Priesthood blessings.

I would never cast pearls before swine, I have given hundreds of blessings over the years...but I saw things in 2 of em. And they both happened exactly.

Those 2 blessings are really what keeps me in the game.

That's basically where I am. I have experienced so much (despite myself) that all of these bear traps simply don't exist for me. I have validated the teachings of the gospel by applying it in my life and observing how those close to me apply it in their lives. I have numerous witnesses from the Spirit that are undeniable. As Bruce R McConkie said before he passed away (paraphrasing) 'I know these things of myself, independent of any other source.'

My bear traps are my personal weaknesses, not any of this itemized stuff in this thread. I'd rather not play handicapper on whether or not those bear traps will get me and not let me go, but if they do, it won't be because of felt hats, papyri or mitochondrial DNA.

[wuapinmon]

I have struggles all the time.

Everytime I think of hanging up my hat these two things run through my mind...

1. What will happen to my children.

2. Remember Priesthood blessings.

I would never cast pearls before swine, I have given hundreds of blessings over the years...but I saw things in 2 of em. And they both happened exactly.

Those 2 blessings are really what keeps me in the game.

I concur. Those 3 blessings that I've given that have happened exactly like I pronounced help me in dark times.

My father was given a detailed blessing that he would make a full recovery from CJD. He died. People told me, "Blessings only come true if they are in accordance with HF's will." So, God wanted my dad dead then? That he died after having gotten such a 'powerful' blessing really wounded my faith.

[Art Vandelay]

My experience apostatizing from the church was extremely different from becoming apathetic. While I definitely had some issues with some reasons expressed earlier in this thread, I really ended up apostatizing for spiritual reasons, rather than intellectual reasons. I couldn’t in good conscience continue in the church because I cared too much about doing what I ultimately felt was right inside my soul that I had to finally leave. I knew that I would break my mother’s heart, and that I would quite possibly lose friends over my choice to leave the church. I knew that I would definitely lose important social interactions and even a regular convenient opportunity for spiritual reflection by leaving the church. Things came to a head when I served as primary president in my branch. I had absolutely no favorable testimony towards the temple, rather an anti-testimony. As I would present and teach basic Mormon doctrines and teachings, I would feel queasy inside. I was someone who grew up truly believing and seeking the Holy Ghost as a companion. It was when I felt that the Holy Ghost/my conscience/my connection to divinity was giving me negative feelings or feedback in my experiences and interactions with the church and it’s teachings that I felt I had to leave.

As I stated above, I was pondering this thread last night (now I can add CUF posts to, slow corners, injured O-line, and Sam Bradford that keep me awake at night). I read Faith's post right before logging off and couldn’t get if off my mind. I was touched by her honesty and sincerity. Of all the reasons someone leaves the church those who feel similarly to Faith is the most unsettling to me. The logic or illogic of polygamy, Egyptian papyri, and seer stones can be debated ad-nauseum but ultimately have little effect on me. My involvement in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based primarily on my belief that I have felt an answer to prayer. I'm not a gifted enough writer to convey the feelings I have felt on many occasions (one of which was giving Father's blessing to my 4 kids this previous Sunday) reconfirming to me that this is the correct course of action for my life. However, if I believe in prayer and ask people to respect the conclusions that I draw from it, I must likewise do the same.

When Faith states that her departure from Mormonism is the result of feelings from the Holy Ghost (which it appears she had felt and recognized many times prior, and I assume since) that makes my puzzler sore. I don’t like the zero-sum game- if you are right than I must be wrong, or vice-versa. Is it possible for different individuals to receive seeming contradictory answers, from God, to the same question? I think it is. I don’t feel Heavenly Father is required to answer all my “why” and “how come” inquiries. Yet I do feel I’m required to act upon those things he has “told” me. Nothing gives me greater comfort than the belief that a merciful and understanding Savior will be my judge and my hope that all the uncertainty and confusions of this mortal existence will someday make sense.

[TripletDaddy]

That's basically where I am. I have experienced so much (despite myself) that all of these bear traps simply don't exist for me. I have validated the teachings of the gospel by applying it in my life and observing how those close to me apply it in their lives. I have numerous witnesses from the Spirit that are undeniable. As Bruce R McConkie said before he passed away (paraphrasing) 'I know these things of myself, independent of any other source.'

My bear traps are my personal weaknesses, not any of this itemized stuff in this thread. I'd rather not play handicapper on whether or not those bear traps will get me and not let me go, but if they do, it won't be because of felt hats, papyri or mitochondrial DNA.

whoa! It was a felt hat? Why didn't anybody tell me this when I was a kid?

I'm out of here.

[Solon]

Not to contradict how you feel, because for you and I know others the feeling is valid. However, I personally don't get the subjugation of women. I really wonder if the percentage of women wearing the pants in the family is any less in the mormon community.

Listen to conference. I would put on my list as to why I might leave the church is the constant chastisement of single men.

Sure, but that's lip service, IMO. In the temple, women learn their place in the LDS cosmos. They have to shield their faces from the presence of God (while men do not), and the Relief Society has systematically had its autonomy subsumed under male leadership (correlation). All the while, the suits get up in October & April and tell men to put their women on pedestals. It's an amazing exercise in doublespeak.

[wuapinmon]

As I stated above, I was pondering this thread last night (now I can add CUF posts to, slow corners, injured O-line, and Sam Bradford that keep me awake at night). I read Faith's post right before logging off and couldn’t get if off my mind. I was touched by her honesty and sincerity. Of all the reasons someone leaves the church those who feel similarly to Faith is the most unsettling to me. The logic or illogic of polygamy, Egyptian papyri, and seer stones can be debated ad-nauseum but ultimately have little effect on me. My involvement in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based primarily on my belief that I have felt an answer to prayer. I'm not a gifted enough writer to convey the feelings I have felt on many occasions (one of which was giving Father's blessing to my 4 kids this previous Sunday) reconfirming to me that this is the correct course of action for my life. However, if I believe in prayer and ask people to respect the conclusions that I draw from it, I must likewise do the same.

When Faith states that her departure from Mormonism is the result of feelings from the Holy Ghost (which it appears she had felt and recognized many times prior, and I assume since) that makes my puzzler sore. I don’t like the zero-sum game- if you are right than I must be wrong, or vice-versa. Is it possible for different individuals to receive seeming contradictory answers, from God, to the same question? I think it is. I don’t feel Heavenly Father is required to answer all my “why” and “how come” inquiries. Yet I do feel I’m required to act upon those things he has “told” me. Nothing gives me greater comfort than the belief that a merciful and understanding Savior will be my judge and my hope that all the uncertainty and confusions of this mortal existence will someday make sense.

I enjoyed this post, because it appreciates the honesty in faith's post, which was very moving.

[Pheidippides]

Sure, but that's lip service, IMO. In the temple, women learn their place in the LDS cosmos. They have to shield their faces from the presence of God (while men do not), and the Relief Society has systematically had its autonomy subsumed under male leadership (correlation). All the while, the suits get up in October & April and tell men to put their women on pedestals. It's an amazing exercise in doublespeak.

I have actively started walking out of meetings that turn into pedestal-fests of guys saying how much better their wife is than they are. Then why don't you treat her that way, instead of some idiot child that needs constant shielding and protection?

I do not think my wife is better than me. I am much better than her in many ways. She is better than me in others. There is no empirical better, one way or the other. The symbiotic relationship between our respective talents made our whole greater than the sum of our individual parts, but only after we stopped getting annoyed at little crap and stopped trying to shape the other (we both did this).

</rant>

[RC Vikings]

All the while, the suits get up in October & April and tell men to put their women on pedestals. It's an amazing exercise in doublespeak.

God doesn't have to live with these woman at home.

[Mormon Red Death]

Several things that could drive me away from the Church:

4. Wild Horses

You'll lose more than you're gonna win someday

[wuapinmon]

You'll lose more than you're gonna win someday

I had to think for a minute......horse racing.

I was using it in the sense of "wild horses could drag me away." I almost didn't since I used "drive me away" but I felt the humor of it was good enough. I'm embarrassed that I had to stop and think about your good joke. I don't bet on horses, but I do always bet 6,8, and 10 the hard way with odds on my pass bet.