LDS Bear traps

[RC Vikings]

Amen, brother RC Viking.

Thankfully my stake is so spread out, our ward has the building to it's self. We are 10am-1pm and it never changes. I would like it a bit earlier, as football has already started by the time that I get home.

One year they shoved four wards into a building and we had the 2:30 to 5:30 block. It was a real test of my faith. I think I would have had an easier time with TSM standing up in General Conference with his mistress under his arm denouncing everything then go through that again.

[Rosebud]

You're going to have to restate because I'm not sure what your problem is with that post nor what you are really asking.

Nm... sorry if I insulted you. I don't really want to get into the logic of it with you. What I said is something that occasionally crosses my mind when I read your posts. It was as much a general thought as a thought specific to that post.

Are you an attorney?

[Pheidippides]

Your last statement shows that in your experience there is something wrong with those who don't believe, they are not "strong" enough, "faithful" enough, "diligent" enough, "valiant" enough, "fill in the blank" enough. I find that attitude more than a little condenscending and frankly insulting.

Interesting you bring this up. I have some friends who lost a child about eight months ago. They are struggling along right, and people keep telling them that they need to pray harder and study the scriptures more. Nonsense, says I. They need to go through the normal grieving process and scriptures and prayer ain't gonna hurry that up or make everything all better.

[ERCougar]

I see what you are saying, but I can assure you that I am definitely not trying to blow these things off. I agree that some (not all) are a big deal. (I don't see why anyone cares about translation through a hat instead of stones, but to each his own). I have wrestled with these issues for years. CUF is a great place to discuss concerns.

Ultimately, I have to decide whether these "big deals" get in the way of what I view to be the bigger picture.....to bring us each closer to the Savior.

The Church has skeletons in the closet. I have no problem acknowledging them. I am willing to spend about zero minutes defending or justifying them because ultimately, they don't threaten me. I enjoy talking about them as a matter of record because they are a part of our history. But, in the end, there is nothing I can do about them. I can't change the priesthood ban. I can't change polygamy. I can't change translation in a hat. I have never expected infallibility and thus far I have not been disappointed. All of you guys that were raised in this....you all seem to sound the same to me.....in one form or another, you are all bitching about your parents and your upbringing, but projecting it onto the Church. It is like you all woke up one day and got pissed off when you found out that what your parents had been telling you wasn't necessarily correct. You found out that Satan doesn't really drown missionaries per the D&C; you found out that Steve Martin isn't LDS; you found out that getting your Eagle Scout doesn't do jack squat for you in your later life; you found out that elephants and swords might have been hard to come by in South and Central America.

Unfortunately for all the rabblerousers, it isn't the Church's fault that your parents didn't teach you about the hat or that some people in your ward are judgmental a-holes. The Church has never claimed infallibility so you would all do yourselves a load of good by not expecting it. It is the best gift you can give yourself.

So in that sense, yes, I am blowing it off. I will leave the Church when I feel like it stops helping me be better person. I will leave when I feel like it is not a vehicle to strengthening my family and my marriage. I will call it quits when it becomes apparent that the Church cannot help me grow closer to the Savior. I will definitely walk out the door when the Church re-establishes official ties with the University of Utah. Since I don't expect any of that to happen, I plan on living a long and fruitful existence in the Church (as much as it pains some of you self-righteous prigs to hear that...ha!)

I feel that the Church is the right place for me. I love being a member and it brings me great happiness. I've been on the outside. It isn't as great as a lot of our resident mitch and boaners want you to believe.

I guess you can say that I am loud and proud, but not afraid to ask as many questions as I feel like asking.

I'm a Mormon!
Yes I am!
So if you want to study a Mormon
I'm a living specimen!
Maybe you think I'm just like anybody else, you see
but trust in my words, you'll quickly observe
I'm different as can be!

I appreciate this answer. In particular, your statement about the outside not being as nice as people make it out to be struck me. I'm often afflicted by a "grass is greener" mentality and part of what keeps me in the Church is an awareness of this--I'd find the same, if not more issues, with any other church, and I do still see a value in institutional religion.

If I can summarize what you're saying though, it's not far off my last sentence. I shouldn't have included the word "social", as this implies some sort of friendship network. But what I hear you saying is that the "program" works for you and your family, so who cares if what it claims is true? I don't mean that pejoratively--I actually view things much the same way and deep down, I would guess that most members do as well--but it does bother the idealistic part of me. I've been taught all my life that the prophet is the mouthpiece for God. Shouldn't I expect that their ideas be more than simply "a product of their times", as we hear so often from their defenders? I can read the newspaper to get this.

[Pheidippides]

11. The three hour block.
12. The 1pm-4pm block.
13. Saturday night stake conference

Amen to all three. And FN, I've had the 2:30 time before. Miserable.

Our upcoming stake conference is on November 1. That puts the adult session and priesthood leadership training on October 31.

I have made it known that I will not be attending. I missed halloween with my kids twice in my first two years of working. I will not do it again for any reason. No lame trunk-or-treat is going to make me change my mind.

[Surfah]

Amen to all three. And FN, I've had the 2:30 time before. Miserable.

Our upcoming stake conference is on November 1. That puts the adult session and priesthood leadership training on October 31.

I have made it known that I will not be attending. I missed halloween with my kids twice in my first two years of working. I will not do it again for any reason. No lame trunk-or-treat is going to make me change my mind.

I missed trick or treating last year because of work. It was the first year Gidget allowed me to take our daughter out. She wouldn't let me take her out until she could say trick or treat herself. Lame. Anyway, I am not missing it this year for anything.

Our ward changes times in September with school starting instead of the new year. So next week we go from 9am to 11am start. Pretty much perfect since on EST the games don't start until later anyway.

[Rosebud]

Can anyone beat 3:30 to 6:30? In the winter it's dark before Sacrament meeting is over.

[I.J. Reilly]

Can anyone beat 3:30 to 6:30? In the winter it's dark before Sacrament meeting is over.

Some of the BYU wards have ridiculous times like you just posted above. I think that's about the latest I've seen it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

An intellectual wouldn't have to go to the dictionary. I am still safe.

Hey. How come you wouldn't bust out the dictionary when I called you "obtuse"?

[UtahDan]

I see what you are saying, but I can assure you that I am definitely not trying to blow these things off. I agree that some (not all) are a big deal. (I don't see why anyone cares about translation through a hat instead of stones, but to each his own). I have wrestled with these issues for years. CUF is a great place to discuss concerns.

Ultimately, I have to decide whether these "big deals" get in the way of what I view to be the bigger picture.....to bring us each closer to the Savior.

The Church has skeletons in the closet. I have no problem acknowledging them. I am willing to spend about zero minutes defending or justifying them because ultimately, they don't threaten me. I enjoy talking about them as a matter of record because they are a part of our history. But, in the end, there is nothing I can do about them. I can't change the priesthood ban. I can't change polygamy. I can't change translation in a hat. I have never expected infallibility and thus far I have not been disappointed. All of you guys that were raised in this....you all seem to sound the same to me.....in one form or another, you are all bitching about your parents and your upbringing, but projecting it onto the Church. It is like you all woke up one day and got pissed off when you found out that what your parents had been telling you wasn't necessarily correct. You found out that Satan doesn't really drown missionaries per the D&C; you found out that Steve Martin isn't LDS; you found out that getting your Eagle Scout doesn't do jack squat for you in your later life; you found out that elephants and swords might have been hard to come by in South and Central America.

Unfortunately for all the rabblerousers, it isn't the Church's fault that your parents didn't teach you about the hat or that some people in your ward are judgmental a-holes. The Church has never claimed infallibility so you would all do yourselves a load of good by not expecting it. It is the best gift you can give yourself.

So in that sense, yes, I am blowing it off. I will leave the Church when I feel like it stops helping me be better person. I will leave when I feel like it is not a vehicle to strengthening my family and my marriage. I will call it quits when it becomes apparent that the Church cannot help me grow closer to the Savior. I will definitely walk out the door when the Church re-establishes official ties with the University of Utah. Since I don't expect any of that to happen, I plan on living a long and fruitful existence in the Church (as much as it pains some of you self-righteous prigs to hear that...ha!)

I feel that the Church is the right place for me. I love being a member and it brings me great happiness. I've been on the outside. It isn't as great as a lot of our resident mitch and boaners want you to believe.

I guess you can say that I am loud and proud, but not afraid to ask as many questions as I feel like asking.

I'm a Mormon!
Yes I am!
So if you want to study a Mormon
I'm a living specimen!
Maybe you think I'm just like anybody else, you see
but trust in my words, you'll quickly observe
I'm different as can be!

Hmmm. If you could take out the highlighted part I could agree with everything else. I think that part (I say this with love in my heart) reflects facile views of the problems people encounter as well as the role the Church plays in teaching and imparting doctrine to young people. To equate things like polyandry, BOA, different versions of the first vision and other surprises that one cannot learn about from an official source (not a correlated source certainly) with finding out that Steve Martin isn't LDS is silly. I give you the benefit of the doubt here because you weren't raised in the church and may have had the benefit of learning much of this before you gained a testimony. Most of us gained a testimony and then found out.

Your argument seems to be that if people would just realize the church is not fallible and that their ignorance is their parents' fault it would remove the concerns and the need to work though what, to many, are challenging issues.

First, while it is correct to say that the church is not infallible, I have never encountered that particular argument coming from an official source as respects any of the big issues. The official response is either along the lines of "we just don't know" or "the problem doesn't truly exist," but the response is never "hey, we just get things wrong sometimes." So your mocking insinuation that one has to be dull not to have picked up the idea in their youth or young adulthood that the church just flat out gets things wrong sometimes seems misplaced to me. I happen to agree that this is the best approach, but it is an approach that many arrive at after a lot of reflection and angst and, IMO, is not only not an obvious solution to the issues we are talking about but is not one I think you are likely to ever hear endorsed in the slightest by anyone speaking on the Church's behalf as a resolution to tough questions.

Second, most parents aren't aware of many of the trouble areas. Mine weren't except in only the vaguest ways. How would they know about it if it were never taught them, particularly when most of them were raised prior to the current era of the internet and of more robust scholarship regarding church history? I don't blame my parents one whit for what I didn't know. I don't actually "blame" the church either because I understand why it doesn't emphasize these things, but similarly, the suggestion that a parent has to be dull to not impart to a child the idea (not taught by the church) that the church just flat out gets it wrong sometimes is equally misplaced.

I hope that comes off as me trying to provide some perspective rather that as a rebuke or some such. I think the issues are real for a lot of people and must be worked through with care. I fear that what you have said is somewhat dismissive and I don't think that is persuasive or helpful to the questioning individual.

[cowboy]

Some of my life's past personal experiences would have to be undone.

Clarification: No I have never seen any sort of heavenly being.

This. I believe what I believe because of experiences that I have had.

[PaloAltoCougar]

This is an interesting thread, with a fine combination of seriousness and levity. Leaning for the moment more towards the latter, I've enjoyed imagining the reaction of some of the early Saints (say, a survivor of the Martin handcart company) listening to some of the gripes about meeting times.

And you whippersnappers have it easy. Back in my day (the '60s), I had Priesthood Meeting from 8-9 AM, Sunday School from 11:30 tp 1:00, Sacrament Meeting from 6:30 to 8:00 PM, and we had to stay in our Sunday dress all day. Made us strong.

[byu71]

Hey. How come you wouldn't bust out the dictionary when I called you "obtuse"?

Because I think you are so dang smart, that if you say I am "obtuse" then I am sure I am. I would like to think you were paying me a compliment.

[TripletDaddy]

Hey. How come you wouldn't bust out the dictionary when I called you "obtuse"?

because he knows he's thin. He doesn't need to give you the satisfaction of looking it up.

[bball3212]

For all of us here, please post who these scholars are and any of their publications/work.

Hugh Nibley would be one of them.